Around the Quack with ATQ: Ernie Kent edition
by ntrebon on Feb 19, 2009 5:57 AM PST
in ATQ Site News
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PrintHey everyone and welcome to this edition of Around the Quack with ATQ. This roundtable forum is designed to discuss a variety of topics around college athletics and the business behind the university systems across the nation. Each week, we will be discussing 1 or 2 topics with all of the editors of ATQ. This week's moderator is jtlight! If the questions suck, please blame him
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Moderator (jtlight): |
We all know the big topic of the day: Ernie Kent. Is he a good coach? Should he be fired? Will he be fired? |
via dailyemerald.com
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PaulSF: |
I'll start... I have struggled with the question of whether Ernie deserves another chance after such an atrocious season. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, the Ducks finish the Pac-10 season winless, lose their first-round match-up (presumably with UCLA) in the Pac-10 Tournament, and finish the season on a 19-game losing streak. Many Oregon fans (including a few of you, I'm sure) are going to be calling for his head. But as Register-Guard columnist George Schroeder wrote earlier this week, it would be a mistake to bury Kent before the recent recruiting class has a chance to do something. He also points out that although the improvement hasn't shown in games, the Ducks are getting better, and they're still as focused as they were early in the season before the current losing streak started. The bottom line is this: Kent built this program and is a primary reason we even have the expectations we do now as Ducks fans. Some may argue it could have been anyone to bring this program to the level it's at now, given that Nike founder Phil Knight has clearly put an emphasis on improving all Oregon athletics, but that's not for us fans to decide, that's a decision for the University's insiders. |
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ntrebon: |
Going into the season, I was firmly in the camp that Ernie deserved at least one more season barring a winless Pac-10 season. As recently as a few weeks ago, I had started drifting into the opposite camp. Now, as a wineless season looks more and more like a real possibility (inevitability?), I have spent more time thinking about whether or not I *think* he should be fired. There's no debate that most fans expect the basketball team to compete in the upper half of the conference and have a shot to earn a postseason berth on an almost annual basis. But, those expectations are almost entirely a result of the program that Ernie Kent built. As Schroeder noted in the article linked by Paul, the Ducks have made five NCAA tournaments under Kent -- which is the total number of invites the program had received in its entire history prior to Kent. |
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JConant: |
Nick nailed it. This issue has become two questions: What do I want to happen? What do I think will happen? |
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jtlight: |
In my mind, this isn't a question about this season alone, and I'm not judging Kent on this season alone. While my reactions to Kent's coaching have become stronger this year, let's be honest, we have had 12 years to evaluate Ernie. We know what kind of coach he is. We know what his teams do. And more importantly, we know what they don't do. This season is almost exactly like every other Kent-coached year we've seen. Have we ever seen a well disciplined Ernie Kent team? One that is solid in the fundamentals? No, we have not. Some years, they have the talent to overcome this, but this year is not one of those years. And if you look at great coaches, they get their teams to play fundamental basketball. And they work from there. They add to the basics. But Kent teams have never done this. Now, this doesn't mean that we won't see success from time to time, with the right mix of players. But Kent teams are very dependent on someone having the ability to create shots for themselves and for others. In Brooks senior year, he finally took advantage of his talent, and went to the rim every time. This created countless shots for TP and others. But right now, we don't have anyone with the ability to do that on an even semi-consistent basis. And our big men are not powerful enough to draw real double teams. So what does that leave us with? Well, not much, as we don't have an offense. In fact, Kent teams have never had true offenses. They rely on playmakers to do their thing. Half the time it's five guys standing around waiting for someone else to do something. Go watch any great team. Not only do they have the physical talent, but they also run an offense. Even last year, a year when we had 3 very good players, and should have been near the top of the Pac-10, we were lucky to make the tourney, and if we're honest, we should probably not have made the tourney, let alone be a 9 seed. Talent masked a lot of problems, but they are very similar to our problems this year. Poor fundamentals which led to large breakdowns, a non-existent offense that leads to ridiculously poor shot selection. And while our shooting had been very bad this year, the larger problems have not come close to being addressed. But in the end, all these problems lead mt to a sad conclusion: I don't enjoy watching Oregon basketball anymore. I don't enjoy watching teams that can't execute the little things. It's not fun. Last year's team should have been a joy to watch. But it wasn't. I hated that team. When the season was over, I thought, good, now I don't have to watch this anymore. And if Kent keeps his job in the over couple years, we'll get more of the same. We'll get some great recruits. We'll have down years, and if we're lucky, every few years we'll make a run at a Final Four. And that's pretty great for where Oregon basketball has come historically. Will Kent get another chance? Most likely. There's a good chance the players will develop and we'll make a run in 2 or 3 years. I hope that he doesn't have to be fired, as I still hate firing coached. But if he were to resign tomorrow, I wouldn't be sad. |
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Ernie deserves another year. Oregon basketball has never been and may never be a school that continually ranks in the top 25 year in and year out. We cannot expect to be a North Carolina, Duke, Connecticut, UCLA, etc. What we can expect, from Ernie Kent, is for every 4 years: 2 years of advancing in the tournament, 1 year of a mediocre season and 1 bad season. I will take that. I know this season has completely gone down the drain so to speak, but considering the experienced players we lost, we have to except it. We do not have a big time player: we don’t have a Luke, we don’t have an Aaron Brooks, etc. And we have seen that Porter cannot be the man; he needs to be a supporting figure.
I say Ernie gets another shot; with the incoming recruiting class and a more experienced Duck team. We owe him this much.
It's not that I disagree, but someone does.
Ernie’s fate will probably be largely impacted by the fact that the athletic department disagrees with your basic premise. It appears they believe strongly that Oregon should aspire to be North Carolina, Duke, UConn and UCLA. Pat Kilkenny is running athletics like a business. You never aim for second best, though sometimes that is all you ever achieve. I can’t argue with the university’s overarching objective to produce the very best athletics in the country. If I were a CEO and my directors came to me with a plan for maintaining mediocrity with only occasional spikes of greatness, I’d show them all the door.
Realistic? Maybe not. It’s certainly is not a pain-free process.
I think that supporters, boosters and administrators believe the only thing holding Oregon back from being a tourney team every year is facilities. Enter the new arena – potentially the nation’s finest for college basketball when it’s done. Of course, many of us seem to agree that facilities alone that will not lift this program to a consistent top-20 level. Continued success requires fundamental basketball, played at a high level, played consistently even against the best competition in the county. To Jared’s point, you can argue the Ducks have had but mere glimpses of that during Ernie’s tenure, resulting in…occasional spikes of greatness.
I can live with your 2-1-1 scenario. Someone(s) with far deeper pockets than I have decided he (they) cannot. If it becomes apparent that Ernie’s not the guy to achieve the dream, he’ll be gone. This season has strong potential for being the first big step in that direction.
Make me a bicycle, clown!
agree with jtlight
For how many more years will the argument be, let’s see what he does with THIS recruiting class? This program, which Ernie did build up, will have enough recognition to recruit because it’s the U of O. There will be new facilities soon, that I’m sure will be all Phil-ed up like the football facilities.
Ernie has proved that he can recruit, but he certainly can’t coach.
jtlight nails it
My opinion is that if we weren’t so close to opening a new, zillion-dollar state of the art arena, Ernie would deserve at least another year. But from a business standpoint, he absolutely needs to go after this season. There’s just too much at stake. Especially considering we will need consistency at the outset of playing at Matt Court. We’ll never have consistency under Kent. We’ll endure 2 or 3 really sloppy years for every great one, and the boosters will continue to be split right down the middle in terms of support for him as coach. We’ll continue to get great recruits and continue to be frustrated when they underachieve or only have one good season.
I know we’ll never be able to hire a Coach K or a Roy Williams at Oregon. But the program needs a fresh face at the helm. It needs excitement (not dread) with so much at stake.
Look at it this way, if we were in the NBA, we'd be completely amped up for a high probability of landing the #1 lottery pick...
jtFTW
Agree 100% with his feelings on last years team. I just wanted it to end, to start over and see if they would be different. I have been feeling that way about TP for a year now. For every 3 he hits and does 3 stupid things and he is short, I just am ready for him to not be on our team. Now why should I, as a die hard fan, have to feel this way. There is no reason for this cycle to continue. And please, any good coach could recruit to Oregon. The swing man from WI that has a connection with Kent, maybe not. But if we bring a high profile coach he will bring in high profile players to play in the nicest arena in the country, that doesn’t sound hard.
Ducks Go!
yep, lots and lots of blow.
We should change the name of the blog to addictedtoblow.com
replacement?
So who would the Ducks be able to snag then as coach? Few? Steve Lavin? Bobby Knight (jk)?
This is not me advocating a change. I’ve stated I’m behind Ernie coming back next year. However, if a change is made, these are some guys that might look attractive if I were on the search committee. From my post following the 2/7 Arizona loss…
Mark Few – head coach, Gonzaga
Ray Giocoletti – assistant, Gonzaga (former head coach at Utah, E. Washington)
Randy Bennett – head coach, Saint Mary’s
Scott Garson – assistant, UCLA
Brian Gregory – head coach, Dayton
Randy Rahe – head coach, Weber State
Make me a bicycle, clown!
not a Few fan
I’d much rather have Tubby Smith.
Look at it this way, if we were in the NBA, we'd be completely amped up for a high probability of landing the #1 lottery pick...
What's not to like about Mark Few?
Other than that he’s a ginger.
Addicted To Quack [dot] com; "In other news, Ropert was mauled by a velociraptor yesterday and sustained a life-threatening ACL injury and a pulled hamstring."
They don't do much in the postseason
Few hasn’t been past a Sweet 16 (even Monson got to an Elite 8) since he’s been there. Two first round exits the past two seasons.
Plus I like Tubby more. We’d actually see some defense.
Just my two cents tho.
Look at it this way, if we were in the NBA, we'd be completely amped up for a high probability of landing the #1 lottery pick...
by travissimmo on Feb 20, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Ernie Kent SHOULD Coach Next Year
PaulSF said:
“Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, the Ducks finish the Pac-10 season winless, lose their first-round match-up (presumably with UCLA) in the Pac-10 Tournament, and finish the season on a 19-game losing streak.”
Obviously, you do not know how the Pac-10 tourney works, either that or you think UCLA will fall to 7th in conference. Oregon, as a 10 seed in the Pac-10 tourney would play the 7th seed in the tourney, then, if they win they will play the 2nd seed (which very well could be UCLA, but that would give Oregon at least one win).
Now, onto the subject at hand.
First and foremost, the new “zillion” dollar arena could only be justified because of the success that Ernie Kent’s teams have had.
Second, look at the players he has been able to land and has been able to get drafted into the NBA (4 first rounders). He’s had players become All-Americans and win conference POY.
Third, 2 conference tournament championships and a regular season crown.
Finally, 2 Elite Eight runs. Before you discredit those, look at the other teams that have accomplished that since 2002: Oklahoma, Kansas, UConn, Kentucky, Arizona, Texas, Michigan St., Xavier, Louisville, North Carolina, Memphis, UCLA, and Florida. With the exception of Xavier, that’s pretty elite company to be with. I am not saying that Oregon is on their level, but of the 320 or so teams in D-1 college basketball, those are the dozen or so teams you’d like to be mentioned with.
Robbie G. "The Beavers Suck"
Again…I’m all for Ernie keeping his job.
However, how many of the teams you just mentioned fell to winless – or close to it – in their conference just two years removed from an Elite Eight run?
BTW, "_Obviously, you do not know how the Pac-10 tourney works…_", stated with a bit more venom than probably is warranted when replying to a guy who comes to the plate several times every week to keep this blog interesting and fresh. Of course, you have every right to point out Paul’s mistake in that manner. And I have the right to say your tone sucks.
Getting past that, I largely agree with you. Ernie should get an opportunity to develop this group of players.
Make me a bicycle, clown!
Obviously, you do not know how the Pac-10 tourney works, either that or you think UCLA will fall to 7th in conference. Oregon, as a 10 seed in the Pac-10 tourney would play the 7th seed in the tourney, then, if they win they will play the 2nd seed (which very well could be UCLA, but that would give Oregon at least one win).
I think his point was, Oregon loses it’s first round game; regardless of who it is.
I support Takimoto in his effort to support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.
by The VD Special on Feb 19, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
I hate to go down this road, but I feel like it's the 1,000 pound hippo in the room
Or however that saying goes: Ernie would probably be better off if Oregon State basketball hadn’t been getting as much press as it has this year. I’m not saying that the big wigs are going to freak out because OSU now has a few wins and things are looking up, but it’s been quite well documented that throughout history, when you’re (I don’t mean Oregon, I mean insert Team X here) rival school is finding success in a sport that you may down, drastic measures are usually taken.
I’m not trying to compare programs here, or even say that we are having a great basketball season, because we aren’t (relatively, yes, but place our record at any school at it wouldn’t be described at successful). But with the amount of coverage that we have received, rightfully earned or not, it is going to be taken into consideration. It’s just something to consider if/when Ernie gets fired at the end of the year.
I support Takimoto in his effort to support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.
I think that’s a fair statement, at least as far as pressure from the fan base goes. The athletic department’s standards for success aren’t going to be tied directly to another school’s rise or fall.
I believe the elephant in the room is the possibility that these talented freshman players we have really aren’t that at all, and may not ever be. There’s still a big assumption taking place that two years from now we have a really solid team. We’re a long way from proving that out.
Make me a bicycle, clown!
at least as far as pressure from the fan base goes. The athletic department’s standards for success aren’t going to be tied directly to another school’s rise or fall.
While it may not be “direct” or the one reason for changes, it definitely has to be connected: fan base pressure is a big reason for athletic departments decisions. I forgot to add one thing that makes my point:
These two scenarios are based on the exact same situation that Oregon is going through, with minor changes to what is happening at Oregon State
1) Current scenario, Oregon State getting publicity, Oregon needs to make a big splash
2) Oregon State wins a couple games with Coach Joe Shmo, no publicity other then the obligatory “this team didn’t win any games last year” but definitely not what we have received this year
Scenario 2 probably wins Ernie Kent one more year to prove himself. I think his days may be numbered.
I support Takimoto in his effort to support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.
by The VD Special on Feb 19, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Enough is Enough
Look, we need to look at the big picture here. Yes, Ernie has had success that Oregon has not had prior to his arrival. We need to remember NCAA basketball before the tournament had 32 and then 64 teams made it next to impossible for Pac-10 teams to get past UCLA thus making the numbers mis-leading.
What we do know about Ernie is this. He is a good recruiter, no question about that. We also know that his teams seem to be undisciplined. Furthermore, I don’t think Ernie makes all the adjustments at halftime needed. I have never been a huge fan of his X’s and O’s. Lastly we have never seemed to be a defensive minded team. Looking at the following schools in the Pac-10 who are defense oriented include ( UCLA, USC, ASU, WSU, UW, and Cal). Defense and rebounding are 2 huge stats in basketball and you need to be able to play good defense.
Now looking at the body of work. Ernie is the all-time wins leader as a head coach at Oregon and has 5 NCAA appearances, both great accomplishments. Do you know he is 6-6 in his 12 seasons in terms on winning and losing seasons. Furthermore, and I think this is critical, he is under .500 in wins/losses in Pac-10 games. So we have a coach that has a losing record in the Pac-10.
Let me ask you this, would we hold our football coach to the same standard? We all know the answer to this. My last point is Ernie’s teams are up and down depending on talent. Last year’s team underachieved coming off an Elite 8 appearance. It is a coach’s job to keep the talent spaced in your program so you don’t have the huge drop offs in wins and losses. I like Ernie but it is time to move on.
by BayAreaMallard on Feb 20, 2009 7:59 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
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