The QB position in our offense
by JonathanPDX on Mar 21, 2010 1:54 AM PDT
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Most of our brackets are broken and there's not much news in Duck world so it seems like a good time to talk football. Sure, we could wait until spring ball has started and we've heard how Costa and Thomas are doing in practice or even the spring game, but it's more fun to debate now so we can call each other on it later. So, the question of the day is: What do you want in a quarterback in Chip Kelly's system?
Ideally you'd have Peyton Manning with Chris Johnson's wheels, but since Dixon is playing for the Steelers now that's not an option and we're going to have to accept some concessions. The guestimation right now is that Costa will know the system better due to his experience, but his Darth-Vaderesque leg damage is going to slow him down. On the other hand, Thomas is big, strong, and fast, but also young and limited in his experience. We've never seen Thomas run our base offense; his limited passing is nice but until you see him running the zone read you really can't judge his knowledge of the offense.
We could be way off, but let's assume these generalizations are accurate and we're choosing knowledge and experience, or speed and physical ability. What does Chip Kelly really want in a QB, and what does his offense need out of that position to win in the Pac-10? If you were in his shoes and had to pick a new QB for next season what would you look for, and what weaknesses would you accept?
Personally, I think the short passing game is more important than arm strength or even rushing speed. Masoli was good when he could hit short routes and let our fast guys turn them into big gains. The deep bomb is nice, but that's not how we win games. In 2009 Masoli's best passing games started with short throws and his big yards came from screens and yards after the catch. Harper was great with the ball in his hands but it was worthless without an accurate arm.
Next, I think the read is way more important than the run. I'd rather see the correct read turn into 5 yards every time, than big runs half the time and broken plays for negative yardage the other half. If our QB can make the right read and take advantage of it all we need is first downs and positive yardage, I don't care if our next QB can take off for 40 yards and truck DB's.
I do think our offense needs explosive play, it's designed to open that stuff up but it doesn't have to come from the QB. If our current 2010 list of running backs and receivers holds firm I think there's plenty of speed in the backfield and potentially in the passing game. If Seastrunk and James can hit home runs I don't think we need to rely on our QB to do it. If he can that's wonderful, but if we go through 2010 without seeing 25-yard QB runs I don't think it keeps us from winning games.
Looking over the options, I'm hopeful that Thomas will step up in spring and take the job, but my gut tells me this is Costa's job to lose. With all the weapons we have this year our QB's #1 job should be to get them organized and get the ball to them so they can do something with it. If he can add an additional threat that's awesome, but getting the ball out quickly and on target makes it far less important to avoid tacklers and truck orange-clad DB's.
What do you think about our QB situation this fall? Who will step up and win the job and why? What would you look for in the next Ducks QB? Do you want to see another Masoli running people over, or take a trip back in time to the days when our field general was known for crisp passing and running was pure gravy? Could we repeat with a QB who lacks a rocket arm OR a flashy set of wheels, or does the spread require an exceptional athlete at the helm?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or the Addicted To Quack Moderators. FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable Oregon fans.
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What I want at the QB position..
is a time machine that I can roll back to around January 23, in which I can bring along a Google News summary of events for our knucklehead suspended former future Heisman candidate to review before he decides it’s a good idea to burgle a frat. But then we get into the whole can’t-go-back-and-change-history-bad-things-happen-SyFy genre, which was already played by the time Doc invented the flux capacitor.
It’s too early to even think about next season’s QB. At least give us a month to let the shock and ohhh-crap to fade out.
BENZDUCK FOR ATHLETIC DIRECTOR!
Why the hell not?
But then if Masoli doesn’t steal that crap, the google news stories are never created and you never have a reason to get in the time machine and go back and stop him, making it so that he steals that crap, which creates the google news stories, causing you to get into a time machine to go back and stop him. But by stopping him from stealing that crap the google news stories are never…
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To be totally honest,
I think that all of the assertions that Costa knows the playbook any better than Thomas are off base. Thomas has been in our program for two years now, and considering the fact that there have not been any sweeping changes in our offense, i’m sure that Thomas knows the playbook like the back of his hand.
Either way, there will be two different but very good quarterbacks in intense competition for the starting job this spring. That will be fun to watch.
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
I saw a quote from Ed Dickson where he insinuated recently that Thomas doesn’t know the offense nearly as good as Costa does.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 21, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
“He’s raw right now,” former tight end Ed Dickson said of Thomas. “He doesn’t know what his full potential is. He’s a great athlete. He can do anything on the field. He just has to get to know where his receivers are supposed to be and get that chemistry down.”
“Costa has always been a smart guy,” Dickson said. "And he’s really a good quarterback. The other quarterbacks go to him and ask about plays. He’s that veteran players go to.’’
That is from March 12th. Here’s the link.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 21, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Interesting,
Thanks for passing that link along. I cannot wait to see how this QB competition develops.
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
I don’t envy Chip. No matter which QB ends up as the starter, as soon as there are a couple of bad series in a row everyone will want the other QB in there. Plus, the aspect of preparing Thomas for the next 2 years comes into play. Masoli has really put Chip in a bad spot in so many ways.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 21, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Well,
If we know one thing about Coach Kelly, we know that he does not give a damn what people speculating from the outside think of his decisions. I just hope to see much more consistency this season from whoever ends up playing QB than we saw last season, we should have one hell of a running game and a strong O-line.
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
I think they’re completely on base. From all accounts, Nate Costa has THE highest football IQ on the team and I’d be shocked if he isn’t a head coach within ten or fifteen years.
They call him Rags. Where he goes, no-hitters follow.
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Here's my problem.
I’m going to assume that Nate has not totally changed himself from the beginning of last season when he was healthy then too. Sure he might be a little older and a little wiser, but he’s probably not added 20 lbs of muscle or gotten a bionic knee.
Remember how bad Masoli was in the first 3 games last year. He was terrible. Awful. God awful. Yet, here’s Chip Kelly and what does he say? “Masoli gives us the best chance to win games.” What does that tell you about Costa?
If he can’t even make his coach think about handing him the ball when Masoli is playing like absolute garage, how good, smart, athletic can he really be.
I think we know about as much about Costa as we do about Thomas.
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To be fair, I think Chip Kelly and Masoli had some serious guy love going on. Masoli could have switched uniforms at half time and it wouldn’t have effected their bromance. :)
by JonathanPDX on Mar 21, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Well,
In the end Masoli stole a laptop and lied about it. Thus ending their bromance for good.
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
It’s true, but at the time Chip had eyes only for him. It’s like Romeo and Juliet.
by JonathanPDX on Mar 21, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
It's like Romeo And Juliet???
Coach Kelly and Jeremiah Masoli are both going to die???
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
It's more like Love Story.
Boy meets QB. Boy marries QB. QB dies. Sappy music and dialog abounds.
BENZDUCK FOR ATHLETIC DIRECTOR!
Why the hell not?
After I blew my knee out it took a really long time for me to fully trust it. For the first year or so after I was able to walk again, I’d favor it any time I was doing anything athletic. Even though I felt like it was probably 100%, I was still scared it would give out so I wouldn’t make cuts that I would pre-injury. When I watched Costa in the UCLA game I felt like that’s what I was seeing. I’m very curious to see in the Spring game and beyond if the UCLA game is what we’ll see out of Costa, or if he takes it to another level because he trusts his knee more.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 21, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s my thought as well. He made a few nice plays during the UCLA game, but never really had to do anything, and was tentative a lot of the game.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
What you said, although UCLA did have a pretty stout D last season.
I think he might have looked pretty good against a lot of teams on the schedule, especially if he’d gotten the 1st team snaps in practice all year.
The injury thing still worries me.
BENZDUCK FOR ATHLETIC DIRECTOR!
Why the hell not?
Right.
Costa is much smarter, I’m not arguing that he isnt smarter than Thomas. However, just because Costa is smarter than Thomas, does not mean that Thomas doesn’t know the playbook well.
Wait, football season is HOW long away?
I know how we can figure this out....
We need a…..HOT TUB TIME MACHINE!
Chip Kelly-Bustin' Out The Banhammer Since 2009
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Mar 21, 2010 9:51 AM PDT reply actions
really im just hoping we dont have a Fife/Clemes, Leaf/Dixon, Clemens/Dixon, situation..
the offense will produce no matter who Chip plays, we just can’t have Qb’s sharing time, that never works
That was always a Bellotti thing
I dont think Chip is one for sharing time. I’m going to use the other side of the coin of MattDaddy’s argument. Even when masoli was playing like shit last season Chip stuck with him cause he was the best choice in the end. I think Chip will pick the better player in fall camp and stick with him.
I Don't Yell O I SCREAM!
by trumpetduck on Mar 21, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with that side of the coin. I guess my main point was in saying that we know very little about what Costa actually brings to the table. Everyone wants to say he is smarter, but do we really know that?
Just like everyone thinks Thomas has better talent, but do we know that too? I’m not sure we have any idea who is better. What we do know is that Masoli gave us a better chance at winning than Costa. Between Costa and Thomas, right now everything is speculation.
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definitely
I was going to use this argument, then i read your post and said, fuck I never thought about it that way. I just know Chip will give the better QB the nod, and that is the only thing I know.
I Don't Yell O I SCREAM!
by trumpetduck on Mar 21, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm am going to disagree that short passing is more important than the deep ball
Sure, Masoli looked best when he got the shot game going. But our offense is most effective with the deep ball dropping. I give you Michigan 2007 as all the evidence you’ll ever need. Just like any rushing offense everything is easier with the safeties off deep. I would love some deep ball.
I Don't Yell O I SCREAM!
I think it’s actually a balanced attack that Chip Kelly wants. Look at the Cal and USC games. I think Kelly would like to be able to stretch the field with a deep base or two (which weren’t Masoli’s strengths), but he likes to use the short game and misdirection to keep the defense on it’s heels too.
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Our offense last year was very good. But it wasn’t elite. If we want an elite offense, we will need a QB that will be able to stretch opposing defenses both vertically and horizontally.
We will definitely have speed on the edges to be able to stretch the field horizontally, and both Costa and Thomas should be able to complete those passes (as they aren’t all that hard, and require timing more than decision making).
But to take the offense to the next level, we need a QB that can hit the long passes. Not only will that create bigger plays, but it will open up the short passing game and spread option even more.
The short passing game is great, and we obviously need it. But if that’s all you have, your offense can be shut down by very good defenses. We saw this against OSU, who got Oregon into 3rd and long situations, and that really hurt. Oregon was terrible on 3rd down last year, and that was largely due to a lack of a downfield passing game.
At this point, I feel that both Costa and Thomas give the Ducks better downfield threats than Masoli. Masoli obviously had running strengths that neither possess. But if either can make the right reads on the spread option (and not be afraid to run with it in Costa’s case) keep the defense honest against the run with an effective short passing game, and add a bit of a threat with the deep ball, our offense should be just fine.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
The other thing that will help the third and long
Both Costa and Thomas are taller than Masoli. What up seam route and 7 yard routes in the middle.
I Don't Yell O I SCREAM!
The sweeping assumptions about their differences must be addressed.
By all accounts, Costa is smarter. Costa probably is the smartest football player on the team, which is great. But when it comes to the passing game, that’s not even half of what there is to it.
We thought we got past this when our passing game started heating up towards the end of 2008 with a short Masoli, but whether you like it or not, height does matter for quarterbacks. And Costa, a smart, smart guy with loads of experience in the system, is only slightly taller than Masoli. And trust me, this does matter.
A quarterback needs to be able to see the field and survey it and find his man. Masoli could hardly see over the linemen, and had to see between them. That’s why half of our passing game all year were those slip screens to a runningback or Ed Dickson. Which was good, but we relied on it way too heavily.
Darron Thomas is 6’3", and that makes a world of difference with a quarterback. Thomas should be able to compensate for his relative inexperience with the ability to see the field and read what linebackers are doing simply with his eyes. It may sound too simple and obvious, but it’s a fact of quarterback physics. Why don’t snipers sit in a ditch beneath the battlefield?
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I have a Ropert is God™ complex.
To further illustrate the difference of height…
WR = 6’-1" and is 30 yards from QB.
OL = 6’-5" and is 4 yards from QB. I’m going to give a little cushion though, because the head isn’t as big of an object and say the height of visibility is 5’-7" (Average head size for someone 6’-5" is about 10 inches, which is equals 5’-7"). To keep things simple, we’ll also say he is horizontally directly in between the WR and the QB for a “worst case”
A QB that is 5’-10" has a visibility of 3.88" over the linemen’s shoulders.
A QB that is 6’-1" has a visibility of 6.5" over the linemen’s shoulders. That’s a 68% improvement over 5’-10".
A QB that is 6’-3" has a visibility of 8.25" over the linemen’s shoulders. That’s a 113% improvement over 5’-10".
its spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-O-B-L-I-G-A-T-E-D-T-O-D-O-I-T"
Your strange 'math' language confuses me.
by HoodRiverDuck on Mar 22, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I can help, I speak Jive.
My parents don't believe in Canzano either.
by Bill Musgrave on Mar 22, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you ever been in a Turkish prison, HRD?
My parents don't believe in Canzano either.
by Bill Musgrave on Mar 23, 2010 2:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Height matters, but it doesn’t mean everything. Drew Brees is listed at 6’0", but most experts say he’s more like 5’10" or 5’11". JaMarcus Russell is 6’6".
I’m not saying that just because Brees does it that Costa will. I fully admit that all things being equal you want the taller QB. But if what Ed Dickson says is true, and Thomas still needs a lot of work on knowing the routes, I’ll take the shorter guy that knows where the WR’s are supposed to be. I hate watching the pick-6 as a result of a QB throwing an out route when the WR came to the middle of the field.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually hoping that Thomas earns the starting job. I’m even actually willing to deal with some mistakes because I think the 2012 season could be incredible. Everything at this point is based on speculation, but it sure is fun isn’t it? The picture will hopefully be a lot clearer after Spring practice.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 23, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
So what's better?
An open WR 5 yards downfield, or an open WR 50 yards downfield? So may times Masoli had open guys downfield and he threw a 5 yard out.
Costa started one game last year and was not very good in that game, the Ducks almost lost that one. Thomas came in against Boise State and threw 3 TD’s and a bunch of yards in just over 1 quarter. And what great experience does Costa have that I keep hearing about. His experience is very limited and the fact that he is a 10 year senior does pose a problem, you only get him for a year. Masoli is done, a product of his own making, and Thomas will still have a few years remaining. Thomas is also the better athelete for this type of QB play. Who says Masoli can run better than Thomas? Masoli only may be better at hitting guys than Thomas but as an overall runner, no! It’s time for Thomas to take this Duck Offense to the next level, and possibly a Nation Championship.
Who says Masoli can run better than Thomas? Masoli only may be better at hitting guys than Thomas but as an overall runner, no!
Masoli was easily the best runner at the quarterback position we will ever see. Thomas isn’t even close to as fast as Masoli, and won’t even remotely have the same physical aggressiveness as a ball carrier as Masoli.
Masoli was a better runner than Thomas will be, it’s the passing game that we will have to see about.
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I have a Ropert is God™ complex.
Thomas isn’t even close to as fast as Masoli,
Are you sure about that?
I mean… Masoli wasn’t exactly the fastest guy on the field. He was just a physical guy. Thomas’ high school stuff shows he has some wheels. He even has some experience at wide out.
its spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-O-B-L-I-G-A-T-E-D-T-O-D-O-I-T"
I am sure about that.
From everything I’d seen last year with my own eyes at practices, and every word given by others present at the practices, Darron Thomas is not nearly as fast as Masoli. For a while it was even spoken that Thomas may not have been as fast as Roper, who was a high school sprinter.
This is the reason the physical tools argument for Thomas has to be understood more in depth. Thomas may look the part and may have more willingness to run the ball, but we will most likely never see this kind of breakout speed from Thomas.
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I have a Ropert is God™ complex.
Darron Thomas has better speed than Roper.
No question. Teams were even recruiting Thomas to play reciever, which he played in high school. Scout.com has Darron Thomas listed at 4.55 in the 40, and Justin Roper listed at 5.06 seconds. Granted, 40 times are a relatively inaccurate measure of speed and mean very little. However, I would put loads of money on Darron Thomas being faster than Justin Roper.
And, Darron Thomas can do this
That is one of the most perfectly thrown balls I’ve seen at Oregon in a looooong time. Deep post corner route right on the money as he’s being hit. ohhhhhhhh
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That's what you would think, but I was taken by surprised to hear the opposite.
Scout, Rivals, all those recruiting sites know jack shit. They just round up to nearest eye test.
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I have a Ropert is God™ complex.
After watching Roper play against Purdue,
I would be frankly shocked if Darron Thomas was slower than Justin Roper. Darron Thomas got scholarship offers to elite schools like Florida for a reason.
Honestly, who knows yet. Darron Thomas could have good track speed and poor game speed, I cannot wait to find out in the spring game and through spring practice.
They know a bit more than jack shit. A lot of the times are exaggerated, sure, but Thomas is fast for a QB. He had similar times to Dixon coming out of high school. And while the numbers themselves don’t mean much, the fact that he was far and away better than his peers in terms of speed does.
I haven’t seen Thomas in practice, so I can’t speak to that. But all tape I’ve seen, and everything he’s displayed on the field display make me think that he has great speed for a QB.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
Do you happen to have a link to any of DT's high school tape?
I have briefly looked, and have yet to find anything. Watching him play against Boise State didn’t provide much of an opportunity to see his speed.
I thought this too.
But from what I’ve gathered from watching him during practice compared to Costa and Roper and Harper, he is not nearly as fast as we were led to believe when we were recruiting him.
I think that Thomas in all likelihood has good-to-above average speed for a QB. This is my opinion based on what I’ve seen and heard from other fellows around the program.
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I have a Ropert is God™ complex.
I'm just throwing it out there.
Granted it’s a small sample size, but these are the stats for each QB (Costa in ’09 and Thomas in ’08).
Costa
Att/Comp/Pct/Yard/Yds Ave/Int/TD/Rating
33/ 20/ 60.6/ 197/ 6.0/ 1/ 1/ 114.70
Thomas
Att/Comp/Pct/Yard/Yds Ave/Int/TD/Rating
33/ 16/ 48.5/ 268/ 8.1/ 1/ 3/ 140.65
As you can see both attempted 33 passes. While Costa completed a higher percentage (60.% to 48.5%) Thomas by far had a greater average yards, total yards, TDs and Rating.
Beside the eye test (which I am sick of this stupid saying, eye test, what the fuck is an eye test?) what tells people that Costa is a better passer than Thomas? I’m also totally confused on how someone can tell me that Costa is a smarter QB than Thomas or Masoli. How the hell would we know this? Does he have a really high QB-GPA that I don’t know about? Personally, I think we know nothing about either guy. I trust Kelly to make the right call during spring practice, but given the limited stats and info we have on both, I don’t think there is reason to say that one is better at anything than the other right now.
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I’m going strictly off of Ed Dickson’s comments above. It sounds like as recently as a couple of weeks ago that Dickson saw Thomas struggle to know where his receivers were supposed to be.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Mar 22, 2010 8:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, Thomas does come across as a high intellectual through his linguistic exercises posted on Twitter. :P
As for the eye test, here’s what I see: one guy who’s been in the system longer than Chip Kelly, he’s been “next on the list” several times and pushed back due to injury. The other played one quarter in what was sadly a blowout. I’m not saying I don’t want to see Thomas start, I’d absolutely love to see him step up and be everything we hope he can be. Ed Dickson’s remarks are also telling, since he is going to the NFL and has no agenda regarding our QB situation.
by JonathanPDX on Mar 22, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
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