Quack Fix: Baseball ranked in final poll, Wheating runs in Pre Classic
by jtlight on Jul 2, 2010 7:12 AM PDT
in Morning Quack Fix
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PrintIf you missed Dave's piece on the state of the basketball team, make sure to scroll down and check it out. On to the quack!
- With college baseball officially over after South Carolina won the college world series, Baseball America released their final poll of the season. Oregon came in 25th, joining Pac-10 teams UCLA (2), ASU (4), and WSU (24). It really can't be understated just how great of a job Horton and his team did this year, improving in every aspect of the game and exceeding all expectations.
- The Prefontaine classic is this weekend, and Andrew Wheating will don his Oregon uniform for the last time at Hayward Field as he competes in the Bowerman Mile. It will be a tough race for Andrew as he faces 7 of the top 10 milers from 2009, and will get a chance to compete against the best of the best.
- Ted Miller is continuing to count down the top players in the Pac-10, and LaMichael James comes in at #3. LMJ will come in behind Jacquizz Rodgers in a preseason poll yet again. Is everyone gonna make me beat this horse all season? James is the best back in the Pac-10, the only back (that's returning) that couldn't be stopped, and made plays like this to get his team to the Rose Bowl. I would take him over any back in the Pac-10, and it's not even close.
- Cougfan is continuing his analysis of possibility of an Oregon/WSU game at Qwest Field, and has an alternative that will make many Duck fans happy: make is OSU/WSU instead. This would obviously be a financial benefit to both schools. Cougfan also has a few other alternatives if Oregon balks at WSU's offer, including playing only WSU home games of the series in Seattle, and continuing the status quo of WSU playing non-conference games there.
- Rivals.com has looks at the teams around the country breaking in new QBs, and Oregon is discussed. While there is obvious concern breaking in a new QB, they seem optimistic, due in large part to the offensive line, which could be the "best in the nation."
- Finally, a bit of recruiting news. The QB carousel continues as touted QB Brock Berglund commited to Colorado yesterday. Berglund was being pursued by UCLA, who is also in the race for Arizona QB Brett Hundley, along with Oregon and Washington. With Oregon already have two (possibly three) QB commits, Berglund steering clear of UCLA may not bode well for Oregon's chances to pick up Hundley.
Have a Happy 4th of July weekend everyone. GO DUCKS!
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Yeah what's up Miller?
I thought wiz Rogers, James, and barkley would be the top 3 in the conference but he has the order all wrong. IMO James should be #1 (especially with Masoli out he is going to be the catalyst for the offense until the QB situation gets resolved), barkley #2 and the wiz at #3.
If Duke ever built a Cameron Outdoor Stadium, it would be Autzen.
True, BUT the trojans will only go as far as he can take them. And in all honesty I forgot about Locker.
Sorry.
If Duke ever built a Cameron Outdoor Stadium, it would be Autzen.
Its not a most important list, though
Its top players. Id take Luck over Barkley every day of the week.
by Brian Floyd on Jul 2, 2010 7:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
+1.75
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 2, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought your glasses perscription would be stronger than that
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington...like Jonathan Stewart, and Dennis Dixon."
I don't even know what that means, but I assume it is "funny".
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 2, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Which one is clearer? Picture 1 or Picture 2?
How about now? 2 or 3?
If Duke ever built a Cameron Outdoor Stadium, it would be Autzen.
Ted Miller ranks Locker at #2
While I think Quizz is a great back, I just can’t view him as the best player in the conference.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
Consolation prize
for not going to the Rose Bowl.
Twice.
In a row.
Because they were beaten.
By the Ducks.
by grimc on Jul 2, 2010 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
"If you missed Dave's piece on the state of the baseketball team"
Holy crap! I want to be on the baseketball team!
How to speak San Franciscan…
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
By the way, Dennis Dixon is supposedly going to be on the Canzano’s show today at 5:00pm.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Also, TJ Ward was on there yesterday.
Starts about the 2:45 mark.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
O-line and LMJ
UO offensive line, possibly the best in the country? That kind of praise, warranted or not, says a lot about why the team had success last season. The unit up front went from boys to men in about three games. It all starts with the big fellas.
And to pile on about LMJ… This from the “breaking in new QBs” article:
The running backs look good. Sophomore LaMichael James is an All-Pac-10 candidate, and he could blossom into an All-America candidate, too.
This is the proof I offer that a lot of people – even knowledgeable insiders – still don’t get it when it comes to LaMichael’s talent, or his dominant performance last season. “could blossom into an all-america candidate…”? Rivals guys, gimme a break, he might be the best in the nation. Look at the schedule and the defenses we face in 2010. Seriously, barring injury or more off-the-field stupidity, who is going to stop LMJ this year?
31-6, 45-21, 34-14, 55-34, 44-10, 43-19. Do you see the pattern?
who is going to stop LMJ this year?
Monty Kiffin’s Tampa 2 defen…. Sorry I couldn’t even finish saying it with a straight face.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
LMJ may still be a little "under the rader"
nationally simply because last year he was a freshman (new on the scene), wasn’t the starter at the beginning of the season, and he didn’t ‘break out’ until Game 3. Also, he didn’t really have a kick ass game in the Rose Bowl in front of the nation. After this next year, everyone will be talking LMJ for the Heisman.
Here is my take jtlight on your comment about LMJ vs Quizz
To say that is not even close is an uneducated comment. Have you even seen Quizz play much outside of the civil war? In most of his games he is pretty remarkable. The dude is electric and unique. You should try watching most of his games (if you can stomach the Beavs). He is the whole package, LMJ is great but not the complete package.
I think LMJ is one of the most talented and best backs in CFB, but you have to admit he also benefits from the system in which he plays. A good QB in Kelly’s Offense reads the D before handing it off which means he benefits from large holes, otherwise the QB keeps it and runs it. The Offense also spreads out the D which helps the RB. That is why you see JJ, Blount, Barner, and LMJ with 6+ YPC in Kelly’s Offense. That is no coincidence. JStew, remember, did not have above 6 YPC for his college career. I think he is pretty good!
Quizz runs in an offense that you turn around and hand it off and he has to figure it out from there. Also, Oregon State’s O-line was not a good run blocking group. That is why Quizz has many receptions. You can’t ignore his receiving yards and his dual threat abaility. He does other things that does not show up on stat sheets. He is a very good pass blocker and he NEVER fumbles the ball…not even laying it on the turf where he recovers it (except the Vegas bowl, but that was a pass not a running situation). Ball securitity is a HUGE factor you cannot ignore.
I also, think the coaches in the Pac-10 know more than any of us and none of them agree with you. Also, not that Ted Miller is some expert, but I think he addressed it pretty well: http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/9896/opening-the-mailbag-rodgers-vs-james
I’m so tired of this debate. They are both good.
by echo31 on Jul 2, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh and the “LMJ benefits from the system” argument is so weak. Every player benefits from their system, no matter what system it is. Ok, so Quizz had more receiving yards, do you not think that LMJ would have a lot more receiving yards in the Bavers offense? Quizz had 78 receptions last year … LMJ had 17. Oh and Quizz had more rushing TDs than LMJ, but Canfield had 2 rushing TDs to Masoli’s 13.
Ok, so Quizz had more receiving yards, do you not think that LMJ would have a lot more receiving yards in the Bavers offense?
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
If I click on those links and they are what I think they are, I coming after you Quinn….
yep, that’s IT QUINN YOU’RE ON MY LIST!!!!!
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
you have to admit he also benefits from the system
If this was true, then Riley must be an idiot for not putting Quizz in a system that benefits him. Since neither you or I believe that, then this part of your argument is moot.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
If you didn’t start your post off in such a slanderous manner (“Uneducated comment”?), you would have had a great post.
Many of us give Quizz a lot of props. I’m pretty sure jtlight (he can correct me if I’m wrong), as well as many others (Including myself), have watched Quizz play outside of the Civil War.
Quizz is more important to his team than LMJ is. Quizz has to take way more carries, and be able to receive out of the backfield. The hype around Jacquizz is not unearned or unwarranted.
Furthermore, you’re wrong about how the spread offense works. The QB reads his own opportunity to run with it. He doesn’t read the holes for the RB. There could be good hole for the QB, and a better hole for the RB – but because of the nature of the play, the QB is going to take it. That means the RB will often have to make something happen because he might NOT have a hole. (This happened a LOT this last year, by the way).
Finally, any coach is going to recruit players that work in their system. I’m sure both Quizz and LMJ would be successful in the other team’s roster, but I don’t think either will have the same success as they’ve had.
The thing that I always thought Quizz had over LMJ was strength, but LMJ showed that he can be a bull at the end of the season last year. The only thing I’ve seen Quizz do more consistently is receive. LMJ dropped a couple sure TDs against Stanford (Where he had his most receiving yards all year).
LMJ is faster and quicker.
Quizz holds on to the ball better and has better hands.
LMJ benefited from having the QB and/or Barner as an additional threat.
Quizz benefits from their fly sweep motion, and a balanced attack.
I’m unsure where the two rate on strength, but I think it’s closer than previously perceived.
Ducks will think their guy is better, Beavers will think their guy is better. Both are great. Myself? I would take LMJ as a starter 99 out of 100 times.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Quizz runs in an offense that you turn around and hand it off and he has to figure it out from there.
This is my favorite part. So what the Beavers have one running play. They call in run play and the only constant is they hand it to Quizz and he has to guess what happening. I dont think he figures that much out. I think they have specific plays that tell him where to run and where the hole will be.
And if you are going to jizz your pants over his pass catching ability you can’t dismiss his fumble because it was a pass. BTW according to ESPN quizz has 100% more fumbles than LMJ. And ball security is such a HUGE issue than I guess LMJ 100% better back than quizz.
Go Ducks.....Ducks Go!!!!!
That shows you how good Quizz is
If their whole offense is predicated on just handing him the ball and letting him figure it out, then that must mean he’s pretty good at getting into the open field and making plays.
Look, I wouldn’t trade LMJ for anyone, and it’s okay (and even reasonable) to think that he’s better than Quizz, but what I absolutely hate is when people down play the athleticism of Quizz. The dude is a freaking great RB, so is our guy, though, there’s room for both in the conference. Is Quizz #1 in the conference, no, (he’s certainly top 5 thought) but think that has more with Miller being a bit contrarian and not wanting to toot the Locker horn in the same way College Football Live and other publications have.
Have you even seen Quizz play much outside of the civil war?
Yes, I have. He has had some dominating performances. But to say that he is the complete package is simply laughable. He speed is not up to the elite backs in the nation.
A lot of the other commenters have dealth some of your comments, so I’m just gonna get right to my conclusion:
The basic fact is that Quizz was able to be stopped. He had multiple games with less than 100 total yards. No one stopped LMJ. His only games under 100 yards were games where he either didn’t start, was pulled early, or injured. LaMichael James is the complete package of skills you want in a running back. He has vision, strength, speed, acceleration, and agility. Quizz has a lot of those things, but he lacks elite speed.
And despite LMJ’s issues (ball security and being untested at receiver), he has a larger skill set to work with tham Jacquizz Rodgers, and LMJ has the skills to be successful in just about any offense in the country. Speed is the one thing that cannot be taught or learned. You have it or you don’t, and that’s what sets LMJ apart from Jacquizz.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
This isn’t meant to take away from Jacquizz. He’s a very special player who deserves plenty of praise. I just think players with LMJ’s skill set rarely come along.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
Yup.
I pretty much addressed this in my comment above. I don’t like when people discount Rodgers’ athleticism. He’s still a great athlete, but he lacks the speed LMJ has, and you’re right, there were numerous time when a LB simply squared up Quizz and tackled him for a loss…I don’t know how many times LMJ was tackled for a loss…
Still, they’re both great.
I was going to highlight the “have you seen Quizz play much outside of the civil war?”
- This is why Quizz cannot be considered the top player in the conference – one of the biggest games in OSU history and he put up 64 yards.
Does Quizz belong in the top 10 of the conference? Yes. Is he better than LMJ? No.
A good QB in Kelly’s Offense reads the D before handing it off which means he benefits from large holes
He benefits from large holes because the o-line creates large holes.
Quizz runs in an offense that you turn around and hand it off and he has to figure it out from there.
“Figure it out from there…” They stop running that play after 6th grade pee-wee league. Quizz does improvise when needed, but his success is primarily in his ability to hit the prescribed hole hard and fast.
31-6, 45-21, 34-14, 55-34, 44-10, 43-19. Do you see the pattern?
Quizz vs. James
Who cares? They’re both really good, they’re both perfect fits for their team. Move on.
Someone earlier mentioned Kiffin’s Tampa 2 defense, and I’m more interested in thinking about all the ways Oregon is going is going to shred that archaic defense. USC will win no more than 7 games this year. It will be fun to watch.
So what happens if LaMichael James falls apart this year and doesn't return to 2009 form?
Let’s not get too cocky.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
Whoa… whoa… I swear… I just read a hypothetical question…
Anyone else see that?
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
QUINN!!!! I DON'T DEAL IN HYPOTHETICALS!!!!
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I can't wait for AP and Getty to get more material
I found a lovely Robb Akey photo that I’m sitting on.
Didn't start my post out correctly...didn't mean to offend.
But if you seriously think LMJ does not benefit from the system (as do all of Oregon’s backs) you guys are not looking at this objectively. I may not have articulated Kelly’s QB read correctly, but it does benefit the RB. The QB reads the D end and keeps it or hands it off. That is not the case in Riley’s Offense. And you are right, maybe Riley is at fault for not designing a better offense around Quizz. Although, his offense was awful productive. Riley’s offense does NOT ALLOW for the QB to improvise, so IT IS a turn around and hand it off. RB has to figure it out and improvise. AND OSU’s O-line was not a very good run blocking group and Quizz still had success. Every Defense the Beavers faced Know Quizz is getting it most of the time and he still was dominant. Kelly’s offense contains alot of trickery and keeps other teams off balance. That is why it is such a great offense.
trumpetduck, espn’s website does not track fumble stats. So your comparison is incorrect.
The only thing Quizz lacks is the back end speed, other than that he is the complete package. LMJ is a great back…I will not say otherwise. But you guys are the only ones who would take LMJ over Quizz. PERIOD!!! Ask the coaches, pundits, etc….
I am not bashing here just take off the Green & Yellow glasses. Besides, The Ducks received the ultimate prize anyway and that is all that matters.
Every Defense the Beavers faced Know Quizz is getting it most of the time and he still was dominant
Did you forget to watch the Civil War?
This is simply not true
Every Defense the Beavers faced Know Quizz is getting it most of the time and he still was dominant.
There is a reason you run the fly sweep, and it’s the same reason Oregon runs the zone read and that is to draw the defense away, create confusion and give the RB space to make plays. Your “system” argument is a joke and I don’t think you’re looking at it objectively.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
by Matt Daddy on Jul 2, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Without even getting into the fact that Quizz’s “dual threat ability” is basically a particular schematic wrinkle in the Beavs offense that leaves Quizz as the short safety valve dump-off on most pass plays. His reception totals are due far more to the system he plays in than any special talent as a receiver.
But that doesn’t count, because apparently the Ducks are the only ones that run offensive Systems in CFB.
The Beaver’s offense also benefited from a more balanced attack. OSU has a great play action game, and they are able to spread the ball around nicely with the passing game. This helps Quizz tremendously, because the defensive backs and LBs have to stretch the field a bit more.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Yes...
the Beavs have their own deceptions in their offense…all offenses do. But it pales in comparison to Oregon’s.
Yes, Quizz did have sub-100 yrd games. It is hard to run the ball when your O-line is getting dominated. OSU had a true freshman and 2 walk-ons starting on the line. So….I guess that means Quizz sucked those games. News flash….STATS DO NOT always paint the picture of what happend.
I have wathed LMJ every game. He is SPECIAL. If you watch Quizz every game HE IS SPECIAL and you will understand what I am talking about. This is not opinion but Fact.
Nobody is saying Quizz isn’t special. As a matter of fact I saw him on the short bus wearing his bicycle helmet just the other day.
It’s just the arguments you are making are pretty weak. O-line sucks, Oregon has some super secret system that generates yards for LMJ without him having to do much, Quizz is just given the ball and has to do everything himself.
Every single person on here has said that Quizz is great, and besides LMJ he’s the only other back in the conference I would want on my team. I just think James has skills that Quizz doesn’t and even that you admit to, but then try to rationalize why Quizz is better using ridiculous arguments
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
All of the arguments are valid
Oregon has a very good O-line. The offensive system is design around the run. Masoli made that thing tick and the running backs benefited from the system and a good QB.
Do you think it is a coincidence that the last 4 backs had huge YPCs in the offense???
OSU’s line was a good pass-protecting line last year but not a good run blocking line…that is not a weak argument … but a fact.
Matt Daddy, this whole thing started by jtlight saying that it is not even close between the two.
Answer me this, how do you reconcile the coaches voting Quizz over LMJ for 1st vs 2nd team? Doesn’t that make you reconsider your position? Tough to argue against that.
Because that vote was not about building a team, it was about production during the season. Quizz was more productive last season. He had more total yards and touchdowns.
He could very well be more productive again, as he’ll likely carry the ball more.
Using the coaches vote as a measuring stick for this discussion is pure lunacy.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
Andy Mac has a great comparison write-up on Goducks.com which might turn some heads:
http://www.goducks.com//ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=500&ATCLID=204965597
Also includes some stunning pics which I hadn’t seen before
"If you can't copy 'em, don't imitate ''em."
YOGI BERRA
Sigh
coincidence that the last 4 backs had huge YPCs in the offense
No, because all four were quality recruits with tremendous athletic ability.
how do you reconcile the coaches voting Quizz over LMJ for 1st vs 2nd team?
So now you want to being in the fact that since coaches vote based on production as part of your argument? You probably think the Heisman is given to the best player in the country too.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Sigh
isn’t production the measure of a great back? That comment makes my point. Not lunacy but expert witness.
My grandmother could get at least 4 yards per carry in that system. I see backs in that offense not engage a defender until 2 yrds pass the line of scrimmage with regularity. Seriously though, every one of those backs are better than quizz because of their YPC.
My grandmother could get at least 4 yards per carry in that system. I see backs in that offense not engage a defender until 2 yrds pass the line of scrimmage with regularity. Seriously though, every one of those backs are better than quizz because of their YPC.
If this were true, you would see every team in the country run something like it (Including the pros) – OR – rules would be implemented to change it.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
that is why more teams are adopting the spread
it doesn’t happen overnight. Eventually defenses will get better at defending it and then the tide will change.
Explain the teams that tried it, and sucked at it (There are many!)
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
My grandmother could get at least 4 yards per carry in that system
Oh good, the grandmother argument … yawn … no she couldn’t
my sarcasm was just reiterating my point
that Kelly’s offense (which I think is better than other versions of the spread) helps RB’s success.
Then explain Remene Alston and Andre Crenshaw who couldn’t/haven’t been able to win a starting spot or average more than 4.4 yards per carry?
I am talking about starters
They only had like 30/50 carries respectively.
But I thought anyone could pick up really high YPC in that system? Shouldn’t number of caries not matter then?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
See Crenshaw, comma, Andre. The thing is, it’s absolutely not true that you can just plug in anyone. For the last four years or so we’ve had some good but not spectacular backs in the system, great contributors and team players, like Crenshaw and Alston. But when poor Andre basically had the starting job gift-wrapped by the falcon punch last year, he just couldn’t get the job done. He was obviously a step slow, didn’t quite have the vision, and just couldn’t make the necessary impact.
They are clearly not very good
I have seen them play.
You have to play regularly to get a rythm anyway. to get on the same page as your teammates and your teammates getting acclimated to you.
Come on guys...you know what i am talking about.
Lets stick to starters here. Guys who are considered talented and know how to run the ball. Not your JV guys.
Quit trying to knit pick my argument.
Bottom line: you can’t argue the fact that Oregon’s offense is a running back-friendly system. Just admit it and embrace it. That is the beauty of it. That is why oregon’s talented STARTING running back history has been so prolific. An infrequent sub just isn’t factored into this.
Using the exact same logic, you could argue that OSU’s system is running back friendly. It has produced a good number of productive running backs, including those you wouldn’t think would be all that great.
This argument goes both ways, and does not help you prove your point.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
jtlight
What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
Stop reaching. Just admit your errors so you can save face. You are a primary poster on this sight but you come off as a total homer.
Barnard did not have big YPC
Oregon backs do have big YPC (all of the starters). That is an indication of a RB-friendly system.
I see a pattern, do you?
year:2005 att:299 yards:1321 avg:4.4
year:2006 att:296 yards:1307 avg:4.4
year:2007 att:275 yards:1214 avg:4.4
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
What errors? LMJ’s “system” is irrelevant to this discussion. Oregon runs a system where a lot of runnings backs are successful. This happens everywhere. But this has almost no bearing on the Quizz vs. LMJ debate.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
You are reiterating my point
it benefits LMJ as well as the other backs in the system. That helps LMJ’s YPC stats and total yard stats which is the crux of many Duck supporters’ argument.
I’m sorry, but what the hell is your point?
We provide examples that refute your point, so you just decide to shift the frame of reference. I mean, what, is the only way to legitimize Oregon’s running backs’ numbers to start a crappy player for a year or two to prove that, hey, a starter is capable of sucking in it?
So now high YPC means you had unfair help, but total yards are genuine… except you’re saying now that total yards are also inflated? Numbers are only legit if you’re the only good player on your team?
Just to get back to reality here, could you tell me what’s so inflated about
by omb on Jul 2, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
nice one omb...that was a childish reply with the links
“refute”?? unfair help?
it appears that when people on this board read what they do not want to hear, they pretend to not understand a very clear argument.
Not sure how much more I need to spell it out. I have been consistent all along, but people end up “refuting” a different argument that I am not trying to make.
it appears that when people on this board read what they do not want to hear,
jc963…
Holy shit, you’re John Canzano!
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
by JShufelt on Jul 2, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Nice catch Shu
S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-M-A-R-T
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
rec'd
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
If he’s Canzano, does his grandmother not believe in him either?
by echo31 on Jul 2, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
that made me spit up laughing.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
something about his Grandmother being fast in her senior scooter?
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Your argument is pretty clear
and at the same time completely inaccurate and misplaced. Saying Oregon’s system benefits the RB is like saying Carroll’s system benefited the LB’s or Pelini’s system benefits the Defensive Line. Or Furd’s system benefited Toby Gerhart. It’s a ridiculous argument. If the players are good the coaching staff will build their system to play to their strengths.
If you’re coaching staff isn’t doing that for Quizz (which I actually do think they are) then either Quizz isn’t a strength or your coaches are idiots.
So to come here and say that one of the reasons why LMJ is good is because the coaches are playing to their strengths is like saying the reason LeBron is good is because Cleveland runs plays for him. It’s a “No D’uh” argument and ridiculous.
You have it completely backwards. LMJ is the reason Oregon’s system is effective, not Oregon’s system is the reason LMJ is effective.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
by Matt Daddy on Jul 2, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But Matt Daddy...
It’s the system!
It explains why (takes a deep breath):
Akron, Arkansas State, Baylor, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Florida International, Iowa State, Kent State, Marshall, Michigan, New Mexico, North Texas, Northwestern, Rice, Toledo, Tulsa, UL Lafayette, UL Monroe, Vanderbilt, Western Kentucky, and Wyoming …. (gasps for air)
Have all had amazing running games lately…
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
While we’re clearing things up, what was childish about the links?
I was simply providing visual evidence of Oregon players building their YPC by making spectacular individual plays based on their own effort and talent.
I thought I actually showed some restraint there by only including one clip of a player making your OSU look silly. But if you’d like some more of those, I guess I could oblige.
by omb on Jul 2, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
But then that would be childish.
BTW, the irony of choosing to start name calling with that word is very much appreciated. Well played, sir.
by omb on Jul 2, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
The reason that OSU running backs do so well, is because the system is based around a more traditional "grind it out" attack
the 2010 version of “3 yards and a cloud of dust” if you will. Sure they’ve thrown wrinkles in with the addition of the rodgers brothers, etc (the fly sweep stuff), but at its base, its still based around pounding the running backs, and then looking over the top when the Defense cheats to the L.O.S.
Oregon has had a lot of running backs do well in the system we have too, but the big difference is that our guys:
1) are being worked in (at least through 2009) with a QB who is also a huge threat to run the ball, so we didn’t see our RBs get nearly as many carries out of our base set than Quizz, Bernard, etc.
2) Are in a constant rotation with at least one other back. Its expected that there will be a 3 back rotation with LMJ, Barner, and Seastrunk in 2010, and thats going to take away carries from our starter obviously. Quizz (and I dont know specific numbers on this) handles a much larger part of the OSU rushing attack than LMJ. Yet LMJ out-did him in almost every catagory except TDs, and that can be explained by a certain Polynesian QB.
Simply put, if we swapped scenarios 100% (# of carries, rotations, etc) do you think that the numbers would switch dramatically as well? I doubt it.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
2) Are in a constant rotation with at least one other back. Its expected that there will be a 3 back rotation with LMJ, Barner, and Seastrunk in 2010, and thats going to take away carries from our starter obviously.
That’s not exactly expected. I’d be surprised if Seastrunk was immediately in the mix with James and Barner this coming year. I’d actually be really surprised. That’d be like having three versions of the same running back in the same game. I had assumed that Seastrunk would redshirt.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
I'm not sure you can afford to do that though
Considering that both James and Barner are smaller guys, I would be surprised if combined they miss less than 3 games this season. Keeping Lache in the fold, especially with time against New Mexico and Portland State early could prove crucial if we’re in the hunt for a return to SoCal come November.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
and i'm counting total
like if Barner misses a half here, James a quarter there, etc.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I figured Seastrunk would be seeing the field, but maybe supplement Barner on special teams and Tazerback.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I think the jury is still out in the playbook of how viable the TZR is.
We all talk about it and make ourselves giddy for it, but it’s not like it was a huge supplement to our offense this past year. We used it during that 5-wide set where we would pretty much only throw that two-sided tunnel screen, or motion James in. I’m not sure Barner was ever at TZR this year, now that I think of it.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
I would expect to see that utilized more if Costa's the QB
like with the tunnel screens, and possibly some swinging screens as well
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I think the idea of the TZR was put on the shelf after Blount falcon punched, and Masoli tried to be the hero.
When Barner started to line up in the slot and go in motion at the end of the season – I think that’s what Kelly had in mind for the Tazer.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
That could be so.
The way I understood the TZR/5-wide formation that we’d go to sometimes was that it was out of necessity to get Masoli to see the field easier. That’s where I agree with axemen23 on that it may also be necessary for Costa, too.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
I agree,
I envision Barner being used in a less traditional runningback role this season, and used more as we saw him in the Rose Bowl. So I figure that we will see a lot of Barner handling fly sweeps and perhaps even lining up in the slot.
Who knows what to take from a Spring Game, but Barner did seem to be used in a traditional (for our offense anyhow) manner.
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
he's still the back up running back though
so when LMJ needs a breather and Barner goes next to (insert QB here), thats when Lache sees the field.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I know it's unpopular, jc963, but I agree with you.
Oregon’s system is very much the benefactor for our runningbacks. I personally greatly enjoy that and take comfort in knowing that even a lesser-touted recruit can have great success in our offense with the right skillset.
I think what you may be missing, though, is that no one here is really arguing against that. What most of the people replying to you are saying is that you can say this about any offense. That’s the nature of college football. Good coaches observe and change their offense to fit their needs.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
Hey, my name’s Matt. What’s your name?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Lets stick to starters here. Guys who are considered talented and know how to run the ball. Not your JV guys.
But I thought your grandma could do well in our offense … is she better than Alston and Crenshaw?
she gets from the recliner to the fridge and back in 4.49 seconds
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I have to leave for the coast in a few minutes, so I can’t do the calculations myself right now, but something worth exploring is S&P for Rodgers compared to James.
Rodgers’ stats can be found here in this great post by HolmoePhobe at CGB. If somebody would be so kind as to juxtapose Rodgers and James in order to bring actually useful stats into this conversation, the argument becomes much more intuitive and supportable with statistics that aren’t broad-stroked and ambiguous like YPC, receiving yards, etc.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
At the risk of seeming like a Cal fan,
I did put together an excel spread sheet with a lot of these same kids of data. Not exactly sure how to format it for this website, and not sure if I can grab the time to post it over.
When you look at all the data, the big thing that stands out is that, almost counter-intuitively, James is more consistent, while Quizz occasionally goes all crazy-town on some middling to poor team.
Which we all know from watching him, but I was looking for the actual stats to support that.
I calculated the PPP about an hour ago and found that Quizz had .53 points/play, while LMJ had around .36 points/play. That would seem to support Jacquizz, but we all know that that is simply not the case.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
How did you calculate PPP? It has nothing to do with TD’s scored.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
PPP isn’t TD/Plays. It’s a point system based upon the location and length and timing of the plays.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
You're right.
PPP wasn’t the stat I meant to say. I meant something else, but now it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
This comment got totally effed up somehow…
Here’s the link I was trying to share.
I don’t really think it sheds a whole lot of light on the conversation, mainly because line yards is incredibly crude, and the differences between both backs aren’t great.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
jc963
here’s the thing. Baver fans will think Quizz is better Duck fans will think LMJ is better (and fuskies will think Polk is just as good and we can both laugh at them). I think we all agree that both are really good.
Look at qrsouther’s post closely and start to dig into the stats and stop using arguments like “UO’s system” or “coaches voting” to make your case.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Very True
We are going to feel James is better because he’s putting up points for our team. OSU fans are going to feel Rodgers is better because he’s in the end zone for the Beavers. In truth, both are great backs.
To go back to the original point of all of this, Ted Miller’s rankings. I think it comes down to the fact that Rodgers has produced for two years to James’ one. Both are incredibly good backs that put up good numbers, explosive plays, and points.
If James has another productive year, an a new rookie back somewhere in the league comes along and puts up solid numbers, in a similar list next year James would probably have the edge due to a larger sample size.
by AcadianTraverse on Jul 2, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess that I will chime in and say what everyone already knows,
Quizz is more important to the Beavers than LMJ is to the Ducks. Quizz gets the ball way more than LMJ, but accomplishes less with those touches than LMJ does. Quizz is a relatively consistent 5 yard rusher with the occasional 20 yard scamper. LMJ is an incredibly consistent breakaway threat who led the nation in rushes over 20 yards last season, and broke at least one good run against every opponent. Both backs fit their offenses well (obviously because the offense is tailored around their strengths), but play different roles.
They are not similar enough to compare. How the hell do you compare a Honda Civic (A very good and dependable car, not too much breakaway speed but will get you where you want to go without any trouble) with a BMW M3 (fast and explosive, but more prone to break down/fumble or get injured)? How do I know which car is better? That completely depends on the circumstances. This now has nothing to do with either Quizz or LMJ anymore, but I get my point and that is all that counts. So there!
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
Now you are discounting is receiving ability?
Fact: He has GREAT HANDS! They throw him the ball because when the running holes are not there, they try to get him the ball in space so he can use his vision, quickness, and power to hurt the defense.
Did I mention he never fumbles?
I’d like you to read this post again, then maybe a third time. Then I’d like you to stop and think long and hard about what exactly makes your assertion any different than the Oregon philosophy that supposedly denigrates James’ skills and makes his accomplishments somehow less worthy than Quizz’s.
by omb on Jul 2, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
hahahahaha
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Did I mention that he's carried a rediculous work load the past 2 years?
at some point that body has to break down…
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
One key reason to rank
To rank Quizz over Locker and LMJ that doesn’t get mentioned much is seniority, and career statistics.
Quizz isn’t more talented than James, and I’d argue he didn’t even have a better season last year. But over the course of their career to date it’s not like James can touch his totals.
And both have accomplished a hell of a lot more than Locker has in their careers to this point, though Locker seems to have much higher pro upside than either of them.
Quizz made his national reputation on the basis of one game..
.. when on national TV he squirted through the SC defense like a watermelon seed through big ugly buck teeth.
If not for that effort, he’d be just another very good running back, and not hailed as the next Darren Sproles.
He has one season left to separate himself from his competition. Maybe he will, maybe not.
But, as of right now, he’s not by any objective measure the top returning back in the conference, never mind a serious AA candidate.
And we should stop beating this into the ground.
[em] this sig for rent [/em]
And now for something completely different
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I'm good at everything." - Demetri Martin
So Brazil is out of the World Cup
and nobody has brought it up here yet?!?!?! What is the Quack Fix coming to when we discuss things like football and the Ducks and not talk about Soccer? Oh right, sane again.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I stopped caring about the World Cup when USA lost.
Why? Because I have little respect for a sport where people with twisted ankles are carried off with a stretcher, and flopping is a mandatory strategy. Get rid of the dramatics, and I’ll start to watch it.
This is why it’s a joke of a sport – it actually has nothing to do with the structure of the sport itself.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
So true,
Once FIFA takes a stand against flopping , I(I would love to see Christiano Ronaldo red-carded for flopping) will be much more willing to watch soccer.
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
People do get carded for flopping, quite regularly actually. Try watching more than a game every four years; you’ll see some good soccer.
The O is the new U
Would you like to know why I only watch a few soccer games every four years?
Hint, it has something to do with flopping.
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
No personal disrespect intended, but clearly you don’t watch soccer.
Your problem is like that of the chicken and the egg; which came first? You assume soccer = diving, so you don’t bother to give it a chance, but if you gave it a chance you’d realize that isn’t the case.
Making a blanket statement about it doesn’t do anyone any good, nor does it do a service to the game
The O is the new U
I’ve given soccer a really good go, have tried to watch MLS the last few years, got into the World Cup, been following the Portland Timbers. I read up on the strategies to better understand the game. One of those strategies, as best as I can tell is flopping to gain an advantage… just like in basketball.
One of my main issues with soccer (and basketball for that matter) is that the refs are an integral part of the strategies of the teams playing. Everything from stalling by faking an injury to getting a technical to “get calls later in the game”, both sports have it.
I’m not here to “do a service to the game” but as a fan of sports, I know what I value and what I don’t. Soccer doesn’t have enough about it to make me value it any more than a casual fan might at most.
--Dominic, Addicted to Quack
Autzen Stadium is where great teams go to die." - J. Brady McCullough, The Michigan Daily.
It doesn't really work
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Please dont assume that I "assume" all sorts of things about Soccer.
(Yes, I know people are given cards for blatant dives, but you can hardly consider what is being done now “taking a stand”) I competitively played soccer from first grade well into high school. The bottom line is that because flopping is a strategy to gain an advantage I have a very hard time watching soccer. This is the same reason that I have never been seriously interested in the NBA.
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
Yeah whereas a sport that involves running for 10 seconds then stopping for 2 minutes and repeating, changes the rules on an almost-yearly basis, has a convoluted scoring system, etc isn’t a “joke”?
FYI, I was talking about American Football, which I love as well. However, to say soccer is a “joke of a sport” is really ignorant dude and is factually incorrect. There are wayyyyy more empirical measures of why soccer is the best sport than there are for any other sport.
Not to get down on you about it or anything, and I understand you can have an opinion, but it’s just a bad attitude to have; try being more open to it and not making blanket statements and you’ll find an awesome game.
The O is the new U
Reread what I said. It isn’t the structure of the game that makes it a sport. I respect soccer as a sport. The player dramatics of flopping and stretcher for minor injuries is what makes it a joke.
I am plenty open to watch a soccer match where the players are out to win an oscar.
So before calling me ignorant, closed minded, or having a bad attitude, read what I said.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
by JShufelt on Jul 2, 2010 6:40 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll play!
I’m not going in for the name calling, but if soccer is a joke on this basis, so is the entire NBA. Where nobody ever commits a foul, every charge requires the defender to grunt louder than Maria Sharapova, and the referees are corrupt. Or the MLB, where catchers frame strikes, and turning a double play only requires implying you’ve touched the bag
You’re right. Flopping sucks. The referees do enforce it when they catch it. FIFA needs to fix many things about officiating.
But if soccer’s a joke because of this, then why did you care about it even when the USA was playing?
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 2, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I hate every player that does that. In don’t like the NBA. Look at my posting history. I hate when kickers flop in football.
The problem in soccer is that is out of control. It happens in other sport, but soccer is by far and away worse. It stops being a sport, and becomes more like pro wrestling.
The reason I watched it with the USA going is, I want to like soccer when I have a rooting interest. Its why I watch the olympics.
Flopping needs to be a post-game fineable offense in pro-sports. Its as unsportsman-like as it gets.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
by JShufelt on Jul 2, 2010 9:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Flopping needs to be a post-game fineable offense in pro-sports.
I like that idea a lot
The O is the new U
This actually is a fineable offense in the NHL, where if you’re called for diving (or the league identifies a dive after the game), you get slapped with a fine. They started doing this after the lockout. Of course, it’s rarely enforced, which is another problem, but at least they’ve addressed it as an issue. Diving in hockey is out there, but more often it comes in the way of embellishing a marginal penalty rather than an outright acting job.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I can't speak to how often the fines come down.
But having watched a fair bit of hockey I know it’s been called in game for many years. At the very least, an obvious dive will simply result in no penalty and you’ve taken yourself out of the play. But for a full on dive it’s unsportsmanlike conduct. You’ve got two minutes to go think about what you’ve done, and you feel shame.
by AcadianTraverse on Jul 2, 2010 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I couldn’t agree with you more. I liked watching the USA matches not involving Ghana, and I liked watching the 2 Germany matches I watched and parts of some others. The common denominator? No stretchers. The falling down type flopping was annoying, but once guys started acting like a sniper shot from the stands and forcing the ref to have them physically removed by a stretcher it made me want to not watch any more.
I keep hearing people say “everyone does it”, but I’ve watched several other matches and haven’t seen the stretcher-strategy employed. As for the statement “try watching more than 1 match every 4 years”…I would do that if someone could tell me that the other matches I watch won’t be more of the same. Nobody can tell me that because every soccer fan keeps telling me that flopping/stretchers are just part of the game so I need to just deal with it. No thanks.
I’ll watch a little more of the World Cup and then talk to you again in 2014; if there is any improvement in the game I might watch some more. It’s not my responsibility to just get over it, or deal with it. If soccer wants to become bigger in America it’s going to have to unfuck itself with the nonsense. If soccer doesn’t care about becoming bigger in America…well, carry on I guess. But I doubt there’s anything that any soccer person can say that is going to change the mind of people who can’t stand that aspect of the game.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 2, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah that was my bad, I caught the structure part after I posted…
And I wasn’t calling you ignorant or anything else, but what you said was. I distinguish the two, and I e-know you well enough from your posts here to know you’re not an ignorant individual. Sorry for the confusion.
The O is the new U
No problem. I get defensive when I feel like someone calls me ignorant over something I know quite well. Not that you directly did that… I just wanted to make it clear.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
by JShufelt on Jul 2, 2010 10:27 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Nice work, you started a soccer conversation.
And let me count these up… one, two, three… yes, yes, look here, your soccer posts to total posts ratio is in the top 5 for the website, making you a superfan.
Congratulations, your fanny pack (not really sure where that one came from) is in the mail!
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 2, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Not Listening….NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH!!!!!! Not Listening!!!
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Imagine if the USA were playing, you'd be going apeshit and you know it.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I won’t lie, I would. I do the same thing for short track skating and downhill skiing during the Olympics. It’s not because I like those sports. It’s because I like America.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 2, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
very cheeky.
can you imagine the feelings of the guy who missed the PK as time expired?
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Some soccer person has to explain this to me.
I was at Magoos, watching the end of this game for no apparent reason other than avoidance of work.
The African contingent was dancing and hooting and hollering and jumping around the room with his shirt yanked off. Hence, I didn’t get to hear the explanation of WTF happened there.
Near as I could tell, the Uruguay dude got a red card for something that didn’t involve making a guy on the other team roll around on the field in mock agony.
It looked to me like the ball had crossed the goal line and the Uruguay dude punched it out with his hand. But he was clearly IN the goal when he did that, so, why wouldn’t that have just been a freaking goal by itself?
Clearly I am too stoopid and not gay enough to understand futbol officiating.
Don’t get me started on the whole “offsides” concept.
[em] this sig for rent [/em]
Let's go to the tape
Anyway, the whole ball has to cross the line like in hockey.. So he could’ve been in the goal, but he punched it before the ball got there.
Anyway, the whole ball has to cross the line like in hockey..
They have balls in hockey?
Is a hand ball in the box an automatic red card? Seems a bit harsh on the player; wouldn’t a PK be sufficient punishment?
[em] this sig for rent [/em]
Street hockey or roof hockey like in Clerks
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington...like Jonathan Stewart, and Dennis Dixon."
A hand ball as the last defender back is a straight red
A hand ball in the box is also a PK.
An intentional hand ball is a yellow in any other situation.
a totally intentional handball is
but I don’t blame the Uruguayan at all. That’s all he could do.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
but if the guy hadn’t used his fist, it would have been a goal … and should have been if the world was fair and soccer made any sense at all
You can argue the same thing about a blatant PI on a wide receiver with a clear path to the end zone.
And trust me, there’s an American-sport corollary for every common whine about soccer that has been trucked out again and again over the past three weeks now.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 2, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It takes away the gray area in soccer
If every handball in the box is penalized the same (a PK), it takes it out of the refs hands. In less than obvious cases, you’re making a judgment call on whether to allow an automatic goal. Just bury the PK.
THIS IS THE INTERNET DAMNIT
NOW GET BACK UP HERE AND CALL ME A SOCCER EUROFAG BEFORE MY FAITH IN HUMANITY IS RESTORED
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 2, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
the fact that you’re probably wearing black jeans and a black turtleneck with a fannypack is enough … I don’t need to point anything else out to make it obvious how much of a eurotrash fool you are
by echo31 on Jul 2, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Besides, it's called a carry-all.
Or a satchel.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 2, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Indiana Jones wears one
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington...like Jonathan Stewart, and Dennis Dixon."
Only soccer encompasses all of them together in one sport
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
by Matt Daddy on Jul 2, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just because every other sport has some bad thing doesn’t make the flopping shit okay. I don’t know about you, but “everyone else was doing it” has never been a valid defense for anything I’ve done wrong.
It seems to keep coming back to this argument. It’s like this employee who used to work for me. He’d show up late to work and I’d talk to him about it. Every single time he’d say something like, “well so-and-so was late twice last month.” I’d inevitably have to say, “okay, well this conversation is about your behavior, not anyone else’s”. I think he honestly thought that since someone else did something and didn’t get immediately fired, he should be able to do the same thing and nobody could say anything to him.
This soccer argument seems to be very similar. Someone who isn’t a soccer supporter cites flopping for why they hate soccer. Someone says, “well there’s blatant pass interference or punters flopping in football…”. Okay, sure there is. That doesn’t make it okay in either case. I hate it in football, I can’t stand Derek Fisher or Pau Gasol, and I hate it in soccer. The difference is that the NBA and NFL/NCAAF are established in America.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 2, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Manu Ginobli begs to differ.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
If there’s a sport with flopping that’s established in America, and a sport with flopping that isn’t established in America, and you like the former but not the latter; then you’re not really being upfront if you say it’s the flopping that makes you not like the second one.
Prone to asking "Who Dat Say Dey Gonna Beat Dem Saints!?", waving my arm in a tomahawk fashion and doing the War Chant, yelling "Tiger Bait" at passersby, and throwing up the O.
I will have to disagree with that. I’ve been watching football my entire life. It’s an established sport here, not just for me but for the American sports public. I started watching it with my parents when I was too young to decide what I was going to watch. I went to Seahawks and Ducks games. I watched the Super Bowl become the single biggest sporting event in America. Along the way I found things I didn’t like about football, but it was too late…I was already fully bought-in and hooked.
I didn’t watch soccer with my parents. I played until high school, but it wasn’t on TV. There wasn’t a Super Bowl every year. I didn’t go to soccer games at Autzen stadium that made me buy in 100% to a team. My football experience is probably identical to the soccer experience of fans in many other countries. I understand why it’s a big worldwide sport.
To insinuate that I’m not being “up front” or not being honest (as HRD says below) because I still like football or basketball despite the fact that there are some of the same negative elements is a little extreme. The difference for me, and many other American sports fans I’ve spoken with, is that I feel like the elements are a much bigger part of the game (an actually strategy) in soccer and that I’m already bought-in to football from 30 years of fandom.
If I had never watched either sport in my life maybe this would come into play. I hate flopping no matter which sport it’s in as I’ve stated over and over again. Also, I’ve stated that the falling-down type flopping is only annoying to me. I could probably get past that. When is the last time you saw a punter fall down in a flop, but then stay laying down writhing in pain like he’s dying until they brought a stretcher out only to come right back in?
It’s clear that we have a difference of opinion. I’ll leave it alone now. I wouldn’t have even replied but I see you and HRD insinuating that I’m somehow being a liar…that it’s not really the flopping I hate, it’s that I think soccer is unamerican. Or that since I won’t buy-in to soccer because I hate that the stretcher-strategy is just “part of the game”, that I should dis-own football too because there are negative elements. So basically, it comes down to me being untruthful or not “up-front” because I don’t treat both situations the same and show consistency (much like Canzano’s problem with Chip’s handling of different incidents). That simply isn’t the case.
I’m done talking about these aspects of soccer now. I’m going to go watch Germany v Agentina…unless the stretcher-strategy gets employed. Then I’ll go to quinn’s site and watch a replay of Ducks v Arizona 2009.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to insinuate you were a liar. I was trying to come up with a better way to phrase it, couldn’t, and just posted what I had. I’m also not saying that you look at soccer and go “Oh, it’s un-American. That’s why I don’t like it.” I’m saying that if two things are similar in Way A and not similar in Way B, then you can’t say that A is why you prefer one over the other.
By what you said, it seems to me that if soccer was bigger in the US but still had the diving issue, then you would be a fan of it, just like you’re a fan of football even though it has aspects you don’t like. So that says to me that the reason you don’t like soccer over, say, football, is that you didn’t grow up around it, which would have given you enough reason to get over the problems with the sport.
Prone to asking "Who Dat Say Dey Gonna Beat Dem Saints!?", waving my arm in a tomahawk fashion and doing the War Chant, yelling "Tiger Bait" at passersby, and throwing up the O.
I’m saying that if two things are similar in Way A and not similar in Way B, then you can’t say that A is why you prefer one over the other.
Why not? The 2 things aren’t the same. They are similar for sure. But they aren’t the same. If A and B were exactly equal, then perhaps. But the actions themselves aren’t the same, and the frequency and severity aren’t the same. The circumstances surrounding A and B are completely different as well. Like HRD said, soccer fans hate it too but they see enough other positive things that outweigh it that they can overlook it. And that’s fine. That’s how I am with football.
If the similar negatives in football get to a point where they are as severe or as frequent as in soccer, I would stop watching football too. I’m not telling you that you can’t or shouldn’t watch football. But people are telling me that if I see something I don’t like about soccer that results in my not watching soccer anymore, that if there are SIMILAR things in other sports that I somehow lack integrity if I still watch those other sports.
The funniest part about all of this to me is that the only reason I bring it up on here is because I’m giving soccer a chance. I feel like there’s so much defensiveness about it that nobody even takes the other variables into the equation. Yes, similar things happen in other sports I watch. But I don’t feel that the other things are equal in frequency or severity, and the positives that counteract these negatives are completely different for every sport. Some of those positives will be more appealing for some people than others, which will mean that the positives will outweight the negatives for some people but not for others. It doesn’t make anyone right or wrong because each person will decide for themselves.
I’m truly sorry if I miscontrued what is being said here, but reading back-to-back comments reading “you’re not really being upfront if you say…” and “if you’re being honest about it…” sound that way. Anyway, like I said to HRD below, I’m leaving the whole flopping/soccer’s chance at expanded popularity in the USA topics alone now. I’m keeping my soccer comments to a minimum.
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody is defending diving. It isn’t ok as long as the other guy’s doing it. My point is that if this is one’s basis for hating the sport, then they need to hate other sports as well.
Soccer fans, and I am a big one, obviously love enough other stuff about the sport to tolerate divers, just like I tolerate the shit I don’t like about NCAA football. (No real championship, are you fucking kidding me? That’s ten times the joke that soccer diving is, honestly.)
I mean if you’re honest about it and say you don’t like soccer because it’s somehow unamerican, then just say that.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 6:04 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re right, HRD. I’m just a lying, ugly American. I hate anything unamerican. I’m only rooting for Germany so I can continue to hide my bigotry, not because my family heritage is German. There’s no chance that I just REALLY don’t like the extent to which flopping is a part of soccer. The flopping in soccer happens with the same frequency and intensity as it does in football, I just don’t want to admit that so I’m lying about it.
My point is that if this is one’s basis for hating the sport, then they need to hate other sports as well.
Now that I realize the flopping in football happens just as often and just as blantantly as it does in soccer, I guess I will start hating football now. Also, I now hate Chip Kelly for allowing Blount to come back because he violated the new ATQ consistency rules. I will not consider frequency, severity, or other factors in my decision making on ATQ.
"Maybe your parents didn't believe in you."
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, and I'm just a homosexual, liberal, Obama-whoring Eurotrash scumbag.
Don’t strawman me.
The difference is that the NBA and NFL/NCAAF are established in America.
You opened that can of worms, not me. I’m not going to argue about it any more either though, we obviously aren’t going to convince anyone of anything.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
So…I didn’t say or insinuate that you are a homosexual, liberal, Obama-whoring Eurotrash scumbag. I said football is ESTABLISHED in America, not that I don’t like soccer because it’s not established. My point about America was only that if something is already established it’s easier to to continue not watching it. I feel like soccer fans are so defensive about this topic that any time I try to discuss it I almost immediately hear that I just “don’t get it” or, in this case, that I’m being untruthful.
The NBA and NFL are better established in America. Somehow that sentence was taken as me saying that I really just don’t like soccer because it’s unamerican, and I’m just hiding behind the flopping. That’s not true. Even with all the bullshit I’m STILL watching and giving it a chance. I understand that soccer fans are defensive about this stuff, but I think you know that insinuating that I’m being untruthful is going to get a reaction.
This will honestly be my final word on the flopping “argument” , and you can respond if you’d like. I’m not one of those people who has to get the last word. Here’s my last point:
It isn’t the fact that it happens in soccer. It’s how often it happens, the ridiculous extent to which some of the acting happens, and the fact that a team can use it as a strategy. It also happens in other sports, but I guess what separates it for me is the frequency, severity, and strategy aspect. The hack-a-Shaq analogy is a great one for me…if the hack-a-[terrible FT shooter] strategy became widespread and was employed in 4th quarter of NBA games regularly I would quit watching. If DB’s started tackling WR’s in the 2nd half of college football games frequently, I would quit watching.
Finally, to say that if I don’t watch a sport because of X, I need to hate any other sport where X exists to any extent seems like consistency for the sake of consistency to me. I don’t like boxing because I’ve spent far too much money on PPV’s only to watch the judges make a decision that I don’t agree with. This happens in the UFC, but FAR less often. Nevertheless, it happens sometimes in the UFC. Since I’ve abandoned boxing because of how often that happens I don’t feel some obligation to also not watch the UFC just because there’s a chance that the same thing might happen at some point.
You may have the final word sir, as long as I’m not called a liar. If that happens, I’ll hunt you down and blow a vuvuzela outside your bedroom window every night until the next World Cup.
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
MCD is a liar.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
That’s it, Matt Daddy. We are sending axemen to your house to do a job shadowing / life mentor apprenticeship for the next year. He will be going to work with you, living with you, and driving around with you in the Prius.
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who’s this “we” you are talking about? Don’t try and lie again, I know axemen already lives with you and follows you around. You don’t have to lie to make friends MCD.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Dave, Matt Daddy started this soccer thread shit.
Seriously, look above Dave.
I know he’s a mod, but he has got to be reprimanded for this.
Matt Daddy is ATQ’s #1 Soccer Fan.
Hey, that looks like a great signature.
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 3, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
You take that back you dirty whore. You take it back right now!!!
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Now that's just name calling, and it's false.
I’m the cleanest whore there is.
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 3, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Well MCD is the one that told me you were dirty, but we all know how much he lies.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm.
I’ve been in need of a signature a loooong time.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
If only I could incorporate a GOOOOOOOOOOOOOL somehow
Matt Daddy is ATQ’s #1 Soccer Fan.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Your signature need an update…
This guy is the World’s #1 Soccer Fan
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Awesome.
I was mesmerized enough to watch the whole 3:30.
OH MY GOD, DOUBLE RAINBOW ALL THE WAY?
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 3, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
My favorite part is when he starts crying uncontrollably and can’t speak. I mean, it’s a DOUBLE RAINBOW. ALL THE WAY!
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I was almost crying from laughter.
You’ve really got to hand it to anyone that can be that genuinely awestruck and excited, but wow.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 3, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Can I finally come home Papa?
I promise I’ll clean my room this time.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I really didn’t mean to call you a liar, ‘honest’ was a poor word choice’. And I was trying to be sarcastic, because I didn’t mean to imply you were an ugly, lying American anymore than you were calling me a pussy.
I respect very much that you’re giving soccer an honest try. An incredible amount actually. Because nearly everyone who jumped the USA bandwagon for World Cup on every sports forum I frequent is of the LOL EUROFAG DIVER variety.
Obviously that doesn’t apply to you. Like you, I hate diving a lot. A whole lot. And it’s on full display at the World Cup from some sides. But the soccer I watch and enjoy (mostly EPL, some rare La Liga and MLS) features diving as only a rare, annoying side plot.
My brother is in the same boat you are: before World Cup he was making fun of me for getting up at 4:30am, but since then he’s gone nuts for Denmark (we are of Danish ancestry) and was depressed out of his mind after watching them no-show against Japan in the group stage to fall out of the tournament. And he’s getting amped up for EPL since Denmark’s best striker plays for Arsenal.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
There’s something else to this that just hit me…the reason I think most people were so upset about the diving, including myself, is because of how ridiculous it was while Ghana was doing it comibined with the obvious emotional impact of that happening against the team we were all rooting for. If people watched the other matches I’ve watched (Germany 3 times, Denmark, some of a few others) I think they wouldn’t feel as strongly as they do. The Ghana game was probably the most-watched match match for non-soccer fans, and they saw probably the most severe display of the nonsensical flopping.
I think, for myself, if one of you EUROFAG DIVERS :) soccer fans would have said, “yeah there’s always some flopping, but it’s not usually that ridiculous” I would have kind of breathed a sigh of relief and given it another chance. I can only speak for myself, but after that match when this came up I kept hearing “yeah there’s flopping, and it sucks, but get used to it.” I think the soccer fans were on the defensive at that point because all of a sudden everyone was dumping on the sport and you guys were kind of defending the sport. Now that I have a larger sample size of matches that I’ve watched, I realize that for me at least it isn’t as bad as I thought after the Ghana match.
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
What makes it worse is that Ghana beat us in the group stage in ‘06 by diving in the box, resulting in the game-winning PK. I guess it’s evident that that’s what makes World Cup so cool, that every team has some historical or political storyline underlying almost every match. And that makes emotions run higher during World Cup than every other sporting event.
I also think diving is more obvious at World Cup for a couple other reasons, neither very reassuring, of course: first, there are 18 high-definition camera angles so you know every time someone dives; second, every match is basically win-or-go-home, or close to it, so divers are going to take every advantage to dive.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 3, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
This makes it sound like this kid is a pretty solid lock
Guess that maeans he’ll be going to Florida
/still bitter
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
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