Tako Tuesdays: Sports Morality
by Takimoto on Jul 5, 2010 11:52 PM PDT
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The controversial end to the Ghana-Uruguay World Cup semifinal has sparked debate about the morality of sports. For the record, I had no problem with the handball. Suarez knew the consequences and made a play that ultimately saved the game for Uruguay. But I can see the other side of the argument, that it was chicken-s*** and a slimy way to win. The question is this; what is the most important thing in sports: winning, or doing the right thing?
THE ARGUMENT FOR WINNING
The object of sports is to win. It's that simple. Just like high school, no one cares about a loser. Why do you think so many people like the Yankees, Cowboys, and Lakers? Because they win. And it's not like you have to cheat to win. Was Suarez's handball cheating? No! There are consequences built in to the rules of the sport, just like penalties in football, fouling in basketball, or HGH in baseball pre-2005. Why should George Steinbrenner be chastised for spending his own money to win championships? It's not about fairness, it's about who wants it more. And don't try to say that this is a new development. Ty Cobb, Wilt Chamberlain, and Reggie Jackson were all "me first" guys who didn't care about pleasing anyone, and yet managed to win, and win a lot. You want sports to teach lessons for life? Well life isn't fair, and is run by the people with money. Sports isn't any different.
THE ARGUMENT FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING
Being a professional athlete in this age of instant news carries tremendous responsibility. Everything you say and do is tracked and scrutinized, and any misstep permanently changes your public image. Sure, a team can win by using dirty players and dirty tactics. But the real heroes are the ones that capture the hearts and souls of their fans by playing within the rules and being ideal role models for the millions of young sports fans around the country. Players like Tim Duncan, Albert Pujols, and Ken Griffey, Jr. have found success in sport while at the same time promoting team play, community involvement, and preserving the game for the next generation of athletes. A team can buy a championship. But it doesn't taste as sweet as earning one.
Where do I stand? I believe that athletes should respect the game they play and consider the ramifications of their actions, but all sports are ultimately about winning, and any athlete will give everything they can to help their team win. Where on the spectrum of sports morality do you lie? Leave your answer in the comments.
Keg Stickers
In looking through the standings, I see that Dom, Paul, and Jeremy don't yet have a Keg Sticker. I'm pretty sure they've done something Keg-worthy this year.
Matt Daddy - 5
Bill Musgrave - 5
Addicted to Quack - 5
Gorbachav5 - 4
Takimoto - 4
JShufelt - 4
JonathanPDX - 3
axemen23 - 2
trumpetduck - 2
AllSaintsDay - 2
HoodRiverDuck - 2
qrsouther - 2
echo31 - 2
benzduck - 1
QuackinAK - 1
ntrebon - 1
CaDuck - 1
scudderfan - 1
Mrs. Gorby - 1
MiracleWolf - 1
keeerrrttt - 1
DuckFanAndy - 1
dannyoneil94 - 1
hazmat5793 - 1
Tim Tebow - 1
FishDuck - 1
Papa Tako - 1
dvieira - 1
PaulSF - 1
JConant - 1
Make Tako Write Something Ridiculous!
Because I want to challenge myself (and definitely not because I'm running out of things to write about), I'd like you, the readers, to leave the Tako Tuesday topic you've always wanted to read in the comments section. I'll pick my favorite one on Friday and write it over the weekend. And no Matt Daddy, I will not pick anything to do with David Hasselhoff.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or the Addicted To Quack Moderators. FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable Oregon fans.
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Winning isn't everything
There are plenty of people in the world who want to win regardless of the cost or how they look; Bernie Madoff is a great example. He had the most money so he wins, right? But that doesn’t make him a good person.
I think the lesson in sports isn’t winning, it’s passion and belief. Some people believe in their team because they spent the most money to get the biggest, fastest, strongest players. Some people believe in their team because they can look a player in the eye and see a part of themselves in him. I don’t think any of us are cheering for Costa this fall because we believe he’s the most freakishly gifted athlete in college football and we think he’s better than everyone else. We’re on his side because we can relate to his story.
Personally, I won’t support a team if they don’t show me something outside of the game. I guess I was raised with the idea that the uniform a player wears makes them not only a part of a sports team, but a representative of their community. I understand why others only care about what happens when the whistle blows and couldn’t care less what those guys do once they win the game. I’m probably in the minority, but I won’t cheer for a team I don’t believe in, no matter how talented they are.
I believe in winning the right way, but...
I played water polo for a lot of years, and that is a rough sport. You really can’t have any sort of success, even in high school, unless you’re willing to throw a few knees to the tailbone or pull a few tufts of armpit hair. That wasn’t a big part of my game, but some people played right on the edge of seriously injuring their opponents – I didn’t really care for that style.
There’s also a rule in water polo very similar to the soccer rule – if a non-goalie touches the ball with two hands inside a certain spot, it’s a very easily made penalty shot for the other team. However, I would have no problem doing that if it were the only way to save the game. I don’t consider a play like that cheating. There are rules built into the sport to compensate for that sort of play, just like in soccer.
Using steroids, corking your bat, using other unauthorized equipment – that stuff has no place in sports. If the Uruguayan player had Inspector Gadget shoes that he used to head the ball out of the net; now that’s a problem and I would say kick him out of soccer. I think the play he made was extremely intelligent. Yes, he committed an infraction, but it wasn’t “cheating” (at least not as I think of the word), and he turned his team’s chances of winning from 0% to 5%. It’s no different than committing intentional fouls in basketball to prevent a sure basket or save time at the end of the game.
Get the unnatural stuff out of sports. As for all the other stuff? Every sport I can think of has adequate penalties for plays like this (free kick, penalty shot, free throws, etc.), so I have no problem with them.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
It was the word “tufts,” wasn’t it? Should I have used “locks” or “swatches” instead?
Defending maligned chants since 2009
My dad played water polo. He told me stories about this type of stuff. Other stories usually ended with, “and that’s why we wore multiple suits.” Ouch.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
At least when I played in high school, it was generally accepted that the girls’ games were more vicious. I also had the opportunity to lifeguard games in high school from a raised platform — and seeing what goes on below the water only reinforced that belief.
I HATED playing against girls. Hated it. They were absolutely more vicious, plus as a guy, I never really felt comfortable going full out. Not because I wanted to avoid embarrassing them with my awesome skills, but because I didn’t want to hurt them or touch anywhere inappropriately (I’m a pretty modest guy when it comes to those things).
But yeah, a lot of women water polo platers are terrifying.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I still remember playing OSU when I was on the UO club team. I got a pass, and my defender pulled back on me a bit, so I, ahem, “enhanced” the motion and wound up breaking the guy’s nose with the back of my head. And he got ejected for it. It certainly wasn’t my intention for THAT to happen, but that kind of thing happened to me a few times too (some guy at UW nailed me in the face after I made a shot from half tank – stupid Fuskies).
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Stupid flopper! Yeah.. his “nose” broke… Whatever…
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
ummmm Gorby was the one that did the flopping
so I, ahem, "enhanced" the motion
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I actually thought about this the other day during the flopping discussion and the similarity to how I used to draw ejections in water polo.
Yeah, embellishing calls happens in every sport, and you could even call it flopping if you want. I admit I “sold” ejections when I played water polo.
It’s the faking injuries and extreme theatrics that bothers me about soccer, and how that activity is often rewarded by eating up the clock or by undeserved yellow cards.
Maybe I’m a huge hypocrite and there’s not as big a difference between those two things as I thought…Nah. I’m good.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I didn't vote...
because I don’t have enough knowledge to put it into the right perspective. HRD, Bill, Tako, all the soccer “experts” on ESPN from various countries all seem to come to the consensus that it’s not the big of a deal. I also saw some World Cup deal on ESPN last night where one of those experts said something like, “if you don’t think every other player in the World Cup would have reacted the same way, you are mistaken”.
I wasn’t super outraged to start with, although I am someone who is typically big on winning the right way. In the grand scheme of soccer complaints, I would rank this below the stretcher-strategy and somewhere around the same level as the less-severe flopping to get a call. However, I think that a lot of people who were like me before the World Cup (casual fan, not very knowledgeable, watch USA when they play but not really any other teams) are the ones making the big deal out of this and if the soccer community as a whole isn’t upset, I don’t think we should be.
It’d be like if Spain started a football team and they came over and played the Super Bowl champ for the right to claim the “World Champion” moniker. If that happened, and in the 4th quarter the USA team’s QB was about to get sacked so the left tackle just grabbed the pass rusher intentionally and yanked him down to prevent the sack. The refs catch it, make the call, and assess the 10 yard penalty, but that team still went on to win. If the non-football fans in Spain started losing their minds and calling that left tackle a cheater we would tell them to stop whining.
I wish I had been paying more attention to soccer for the past few years so I could get a better feel for if this is a good comparison, but given the casual reaction of most of the fans who are in-the-know, it seems like we are making a bigger deal out it than necessary.
That being said, I’d personally rather lose with honor than win with dishonor. The question is, where do you draw the line between a “foul” or “rule violation”, and a serious integrity violation that crosses that honor/dishonor line. I don’t know the answer to that for soccer…yet.
Also, I’m all set up for World Cup 2014. If USA doesn’t do anything, Germany should for sure so I’m ready to go.
Ich liebe Amerika, aber meine Familie hat deutsche Erbe...So go Deutschland! Gewinnen die Fussball-Weltmeisterschaft!!!
I’m in the same boat as you regarding level of soccer fandom (although it sounds like you might be a tad more into it than I am), but I completely agree with you on the severe flopping/faking injuries being WAY worse than the handball. Again, because there are rules to compensate for the handball. The player wasn’t gaming the system or being deceptive to gain an advantage – he made the only play available to him. On the other hand, in most cases, there is no way for the referees to know whether a player is being truthful about an injury.
That Ghana player who rolled around on the ground, wasting time by faking an injury – that to me is deplorable, and probably the main reason why I won’t continue to watch soccer once the World Cup is over. I have honestly enjoyed getting into this tournament – the Germany – Argentina game the other day was fantastic (mainly because Germany is my team now that the US is out – my grandparents are from there). But I can’t handle the deliberate lies that take place in the form of faked injuries. That stuff makes me mad.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
In flight wifi kicks ass!
I spoke with a friend who played soccer in college, and is kind of the guru I go to with soccer questions like this. He said he’d actually done the same thing before in a game situation. What made the Suarez situation unique was the time on the clock. But he was more of the mind that it was the right play.
What MCD said is just right, honorable losing is better than dishonorable winning. Lombardi be damned. If you really want to transcend sport, there are better ways than winning. As boring as golf may be, one of the best things about it is the honor system. Especially in the days before HDTV. Hale Irwin calling a stroke penalty on himself when he’s the only one who knew his ball wavered and didn’t move, and going on to lose the US Open by one stroke, that’s transcendent.
Matt Daddy is ATQ’s #1 Soccer Fan.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jul 6, 2010 7:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you hit the nail on the head when you bolded reacted
When you grow up your whole life being a soccer defender you wake up everyday thinking, how can I keep the ball out of my net. Its all instincts, he probably didnt even think about it. He has more than likely played a lot of keeper over the years and those reflexes are all ingrained. He did not have time to say, he I could stop this and get a red, or let us loose. He just stoped the ball. Not only would no player in the tournament do differently, I would say that no player in the tournament could have done differently.
Not to mention, if Ghana makes that PK this is a complete nonissue.
Go Ducks.....Ducks Go!!!!!
Personally, I don't like anything with questions about integrity.
Suarez grabbing at a ball because he has no other choice except to
I think there is some misunderstanding between soccer fans an non fans about flopping and theatrics.
I for one despise it. I don’t think anyone is saying to sit back and enjoy it, I think the soccer fan is typically asking the non-fan to maybe not be equally theatric about it, call it professional wrestling, or whatever… and instead talk about the other 98% of the game, it’s intracacies and strategies, its great achievements and great disappointments.. just like any other sport.
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 7, 2010 8:06 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Posting from the Dominican Republic
Hopped up on cafe con ron and on iPod, so I appologize if me no make no sense.
I think it does lack integity to grab a soccer ball on purpose when you know the rules of the game. Never say die, try a bicycle kick, still possible to stop that shot with other means, using your hands is admitting you’re not good enough to do it right.
I suppose there is always gray area about what is fair, personnally I like choices that take all questions about integity out of the equation altogether.
Thank you track, baseball, softball, and golf for ending my summer hibernation.
by Bill Musgrave on Jul 7, 2010 8:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Safe travels Texas friend.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
It just appears to me to be a foul by strategy. I put it in the same category as the last 5 minutes of every basketball game and a timely pass interference call to stop an otherwise sure TD in college. (In Pro, not so much, because the possession takes place at the location of the penalty.)
I think it was a heads up and sacrificial play to keep their team in the world’s biggest sporting event.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I don’t think it’s any different than a basketball team being down three with a few seconds left, and having the other team foul you before a shot is put up so that you can only shoot two free throws. It’s annoying, sure, but it’s the rules. In fact, it’s even worse there, because you’re chances of winning decrease by a much greater magnitude than the Suarez situation where you actually do get a PK to attempt to win the game.
The PI analogy was the exact one I made to my wife yesterday. It was a tactical move made with a prescribed (super-severe) penalty that was then properly awarded. It’s not at all like this meta-game flopping bullcrap that we had to endure every game.
The U of O: Where idle hands are the devil's workshop.
by ProbablyMonty on Jul 6, 2010 10:15 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It equates nicely to the NFL too
Getting a PK is about the the same as getting the ball on the One yard line. I dont know stats on NFL defenses vs 1st and Goal from the One, but they cant be good. ESPN did a sports science last week that said PK’s were stopped world wide at about a 22% clip over the last few years.
Go Ducks.....Ducks Go!!!!!
Joe Posnanski has a nice take on it
I love Joe’s writing, and I agree that in the strictest sense, justice was not done, but as some commenters on there point out, it would be difficult to make an effective rule that acted like the goaltending rule in basketball. I just don’t think we’re going to see a situation this clear cut for long time, which would render a rule change counter-productive.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I just feel like in a stage like the world cup, where Uruguay might not be in this position again for 30 years, he did the right thing.
Also, Tako here’s my challenge to you: Write a piece investigating the apropriation of the athletic capital between the various institutions of said “academic corporation” at the University of Oregon.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Write a piece investigating the apropriation of the athletic capital between the various institutions of said "academic corporation" at the University of Oregon.
That sounds like a school assignment. I’m not sure if you heard, but Tako graduated.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Shut up, I want to feel dumber when I read Tako Tuesday.s
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Tako Tuesdays has vast areas of untapped potential:
best types of chips
best types and cuts of meat to eat (sorry, quinn, tofu doesn’t count)
best hair bands
why Matt is wrong about produce in beer
why the current NBA sucks compared to the 1990s NBA
Every Rose has its thorn, but Cal can’t even manage to find that
there are a lot of ways you can go about this
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
by David Piper on Jul 6, 2010 8:34 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I would love to see an entry on Comic Strips
I would be willing to contribute to that, but I don’t know if I’m qualified to do a whole piece. I basically know Calving & Hobbes (best strip ever, in my opinion), Peanuts, Garfield, and Foxtrot. I don’t know any of the older strips, and haven’t really delved into non-mainstream stuff (except for a D&D based comic strip called Order of the Stick).
By the way, rec’d for
why Matt is wrong about produce in beer
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I like Get Fuzzy and Pearls Before Swine
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I'm good at everything." - Demetri Martin
Pearls Before Swine is fantastic. I try to read that one every day, although I haven’t kept up with it lately.
Get Fuzzy used to make me laugh every morning. Now it just seems weird. Bucky and Satchel are more annoying than anything else. Maybe I’m just missing the point.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
You don't put produce in your beer!!!
Other than that, some things that would be fun topics for TT are:
1. I really liked everyone’s take on music and I know Tako has some great takes too (Hasselhoff optional)
2. Favorite or most visited websites people on ATQ look at
3. Cooking/Bbq (so Daisy has something to make for her husband besides Mac n Cheese)
4. Best travel and vacation destinations
5. Best/favorite cartoons/comics of all time
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I'll post this here instead of the Quack Fix
Any recommendations for where to go to dinner in Portland? We’ll probably go out twice.
One of the nights I’d like to go to McMenamins, since that’s where I used to go in Eugene (I pretty much learned to drink beer there). The only one in Portland I’ve been to is the Kennedy School. Are any of their Portland locations fine or is there one that would be better than the others?
Any other restaurant recommendations? Only stipulations are that it has to be kid friendly and not too expensive (which probably go hand in hand). Thanks in advance.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
We take the kids to the Barley Mill (McMenamins) on Hawthorne for lunch
Nice relaxed atmosphere, lots of games, (battleship, sorry, clue etc), I also like McMenamins on NW 23rd & Savier, they have a more family friendly atmosphere (like the Barley Mill) if you go to that one make sure to walk half block to The Old Lompoc for some great microbrews you can only get there.
Say what you mean, and say it mean. - Clint Ruin
Ahh… the weakest part of Portland: Family Dining.
Depends on where you’re staying and how far you want to go. Being that you also have kids, it does make it somewhat more challenging to eat on a budget.
In terms of McMenamins, the coolest one, in my opinion is Edgefield. It’s a huge piece of property with a large manor-turned hotel. They have their own winery and distillery there in addition to their beer. There’s a theater, and during summer, there usually is pretty good live music. It’s a great place to walk around. Take your beer outside, walk in the gardens, or walk around the old buildings.
Of course, the Kennedy School is a great place.
There’s also one of the newer McMenamins, the Chapel Pub, which is an old morgue-turned-Restaurant and Bar. The embalming table was thrown out, and they put in the main bar there. It’s a neat place.
Barley Mill is also a great place. They tend to have more host taps than other locations. Just down Hawthorn, you also have the Bagdad Theater.
Non-McMenamins:
Serratto is Downtown, not far from the West Hills, but it’s a great family restaurant. Great variety of Italian foods. Something for everyone (Even those that don’t like Italian food).
Apizza Scholls is also widely renown pizza place. I think it’s a tad overrated, but it is one of the better pizza places in the Portland area. The area itself isn’t bad, right down the road you have the Bridgeport Ale House (Not really a family place though) and The Old Lompoc is also good spot. Nice beers there. Not far from McMenamin’s Barley Mill and Bagdad Theater. The people in this area are super yuppy hipsters though.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Thanks for the suggestions, more are welcome to chime in.
As for the budget, it’s not like we’re trying to stay super cheap; mainly I wanted to avoid getting suggestions for places where you can’t eat for less than $25 per person (which probably won’t be kid-friendly places anyway).
We’re staying close to downtown (we’re right near the Convention Center), but we’ll have a car available, so anything in the city or right around it is fine.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I could also pimp Kells Irish Pub. It’s one of my favorite places in the world. (Their Lager is awesome!)
However, it is going to be PACKED for the World Cup on the 10th and 11th, and they have a cover charge Friday and Saturday nights.
There is a great Thai Restaurant across the street called Esan Thai.
Also, some chains: I know there are some in California, but Buffalo Wild Wings and Old Chicago are some of my favorite places to go. Old Chicago usually has 30 or so beers on tap, with another 70+ types of bottles being chilled and ready to consume)
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I love me a good Irish Pub, although we’d have to do that Thursday night instead of McMenamin’s which was the plan…I might have to save that one for another trip up there. Thai might be good, though. Buffalo Wild Wings I’ve heard of, but Old Chicago I’m unfamiliar with (probably because they don’t have an CA locations). Looks pretty good.
On an almost completely unrelated note, does anyone know if the blackberries are ripe in Eugene yet? One of my favorite memories from the summer there was walking down the traintracks or floating down the river and picking blackberries (and then putting them on vanilla ice cream later).
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Blackberries are usually ripe in Mid-August. Some might be ready, but it’s been a cold and short summer, so I doubt they’ll be ready.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Yeah, I mostly remember going in early – mid August. Thought I’d give it a shot. Those blackberries spoiled me – it’s impossible to get good ones down here.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
When my family came to visit they were thrilled. Blackberry season had just ended, and they came to Eugene and first went “Oh, look a few blackberries.” And then suddenly, they were everywhere.
Prone to asking "Who Dat Say Dey Gonna Beat Dem Saints!?", waving my arm in a tomahawk fashion and doing the War Chant, yelling "Tiger Bait" at passersby, and throwing up the O.
Acapulco's Gold
On NW 27th and Vaughn (the streets in NW are in alphabetical order btw) good food, huge portions, fantastic margaritas, my favorite mexicanesque place in Portland.
Say what you mean, and say it mean. - Clint Ruin
Produce Row
Is very close to your Hotel, great sandwiches, burgers, family friendly. Good selection of beer. Check it out here
Say what you mean, and say it mean. - Clint Ruin
Breakfast and/or Lunch: Milo’s City Cafe on 13th & NE Broadway
Lunch and/or Dinner: Papa Hadyn in Northwest; Mama Mia downtown, Hollywood Burger Bar, Poor Richards
I was gonna go to Poor Richards, but a friend of mine said it was waaaay expensive. Is that true?
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I guess way expensive is relative, but I don't really think so
The steaks can run $20 but everything else is less than that. And they have these great two-fer deals that are two full meals for one low price. I haven’t been there in probably about a year – but hopefully it hasn’t changed all that much. Value is kind of their tradmark (it’s all Ben Franklin themed).
That’s not bad. I’ll have to check it out.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
BTW, was that irony?
Because I answered very literally, but upon reading it again I recognize the great potential for irony.
go to rocco's pizza by powells books.
great place for kids.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
He's not allowed within 50 feet of a Chuck E. Cheese
Q: How come Oregon State players haven't gotten in trouble for stealing anything from a frat house?
A: Who wants to steal a lunchbox?
by QuackQuackAttack on Jul 6, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, it’s not illegal, per se….It’s just frowned upon. Much like masturbating on an airplane.
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks a lot Bin Ladin
"Legends are made on the shores of Lake Washington...like Jonathan Stewart, and Dennis Dixon."
I don't really watch soccer. But since the U.S was in it I followed it.
I find it ironic that the team that suddenly started dropping likes flies after they went up a goal during extra time against the US is crying foul with the hand ball in the next game.
It makes me laugh.
If Duke ever built a Cameron Outdoor Stadium, it would be Autzen.
Interesting topic. I tend to fall more on the winning side, though that doesn’t mean I want my teams to do things the wrong way. I want the athletes I support to be good role models, work hard, etc. But I also want them to compete their hardest, and that means using the rules to their advantage.
If they’re about to give up a sure TD pass, interfere, and trade the penalty for the touchdown. Rules are in place, and they are part of the competition.
I draw the line at outright cheating, where you are going outside the rules of the game to try to gain an advantage. But even then, I don’t really care about steroid use in baseball, or USC’s infractions in football, simply because of how the playing field is set up. I don’t want my team to behave in that manner, but I just don’t care about other teams infractions to that degree, and let their fans worry about that.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
I don’t agree with (a) deceiving/hiding things from the officials and (b) intentionally committing safety-related fouls and taking the penalty. Intentionally committing other fouls and taking the penalty (which is where Suarez falls) is fine by me.
Prone to asking "Who Dat Say Dey Gonna Beat Dem Saints!?", waving my arm in a tomahawk fashion and doing the War Chant, yelling "Tiger Bait" at passersby, and throwing up the O.
Its tough for me
I want things done the right way. I don’t want my school paying players, I don’t want people hiding things from officials, etc.
I’m all in favor of things like physical play, etc.
Something like what Suarez did is something I have trouble with because, even though there’s a rule for the situation, it seems to violate the spirit of the sport.
oh, ethical dilemmas.
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
Just out of curiosity (not trying to get in an argument or anything)
What’s your take on intentional pass interference to prevent a touchdown? Or on intentionally fouling at the end of basketball games? Or even intentionally walking hitters? Do those things bother you in the same way this play did?
Each of those play violates, in a manner of speaking, the spirit of the sport (or the spirit of competition). I totally understand your point of view, but for whatever reason, this just didn’t bother me (in fact, I was even impressed by his reaction).
Again, I’m legitimately curious, since I was a bit surprised by my own natural acceptance of the play. I figured I might be a little upset about it, but I found myself praising the guy instead.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
For argument's sake
How do you feel about stealing signs in baseball?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
I’m definitely against using any “artificial” means of sign-stealing, like the Phillies were busted for earlier this year when they had a guy in the bullpen with binoculars. Outside of that, I still don’t really like it, but more because it’s one of those “unwritten rules” that baseball has so many of. It’s one of those “honor code” things.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I agree with the “artificial” distinction. I have no problem with a runner on second who is able to pick up the signs (or if the catcher is indifferent or lazy about revealing pitch location early) and relaying that to the hitter in time. That said, I also have no problem with the pitcher throwing a “purpose pitch” the next time that runner is up if he’s caught doing it.
I think if it is purely from sideline observation, that’s not a problem.
If some team cracks Oregon’s sign code, then props to them too.
If they steal signals/signs through video tape, or anything, then that’s kinda BS.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
If they steal signals/signs through video tape, or anything, then that’s kinda BS.
I don’t get the whole, “don’t use technology to do it” thing. If you have no fundamental problem with sign stealing as a tool to gain an advantage on your opponent then why isn’t using video or binoculars or any other form of technology acceptable?
If you’re coach of XYZ team and your video assistant, asst coach or somebody comes into your office and says, “hey coach, I’ve figured out by watching the CBS broadcast of our opponent when they’re going to blitz and what hand signal they use” are you going to say, don’t tell me?
Where’s the line on this film is ok to watch, this headset and communication technology is alright, but these are off limits?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Let me put it this way
Signs are as much a part of the game as any other aspect. I understand that changing up signs and “coding” the way a coach or player relays information would make it more difficult for teams, but so what?
No one is getting hurt or at physical risk (like a bean ball would do to an opposing hitter), and yes, players would need to be smart to be able to handle the number of changes teams needed to implement sign changes, but once again, who cares?
Why is there an “unwritten rule” for sign stealing in MLB, or in the NFL written rules on signal filming? (BTW, Beli-cheat is a tool for more than just trying to break this rule) Who’s hurt by this?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
No one is hurt in the physical sense, but I would again point to this somewhat nebulous concept of the spirit of competition. I want Torii Hunter to hit a homerun because he’s a good hitter who recognized a curve ball and hit the crap out of it. It’s much less entertaining (to me) if he hits it because he knew it was coming.
Similarly, in football, it’s much more interesting to know a team’s defense shut down the opposing offense because they used schemes designed to counter their opponent’s strengths, reacted quickly, and made higher quality athletic plays than the offense did. Of course if a team can steal signs, they will because the point is to win, and if there aren’t any written rules prohibiting it, they haven’t done anything wrong. Once sign stealing is involved, it’s just a game of cracking codes rather than an athletic competition. It doesn’t take as much skill to succeed.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Ok so where does this “Spirit of Competition” come into play when a defender uses his hand to knock away a scoring ball in the closing minutes and instead of using:
schemes designed to counter their opponent’s strengths, reacted quickly, and made higher quality athletic plays
uses the skirts of the rules to extend the game and eventually win based on rules implied or explicit instead of said athletic abilities? How does that play fall within the Spirit of Competition?
Once sign stealing is involved, it’s just a game of cracking codes rather than an athletic competition.
I completely disagree. I think it enhances the game on a cerebral level. Players have to be more than athletically gifted, but also able to mentally adjust to another aspect of the game. Or, and better yet, able to execute their game plan so flawlessly that it doesn’t matter if the opposing team knows what play or pitch is coming they are still able to win.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Using your hand to knock a ball away, even if it’s against the rules, is so far different from stealing signs to gain an advantage that the comparison isn’t even worth making. My comment was in regards specifically to stealing signs in football.
I completely disagree. I think it enhances the game on a cerebral level. Players have to be more than athletically gifted, but also able to mentally adjust to another aspect of the game. Or, and better yet, able to execute their game plan so flawlessly that it doesn’t matter if the opposing team knows what play or pitch is coming they are still able to win.
I couldn’t disagree more. I think players have to be smarter the less they know for certain. So Alliotti tells Casey Matthews what the defensive play call is, and Casey Matthews also has all of this knowledge he’s built from his college career and watching game film. He has to process all of that information for each play – what formation are they in, what plays did they run previously, what personnel are in the game for them, what personnel are in the game for US, etc. Then using whatever conclusions he comes to from that processing, he has to react to the play as it unfolds. That’s interesting. That takes intelligence, and wisdom. It takes athletic ability to translate the entire thing into action. That process is the difference between great players and amazing players, especially when brought in concert with athletic ability and skill.
Way more interesting than: Casey Matthews sees sign. Casey Matthews recognizes sign as Play X. Casey Matthews knows where to go to break up the play. Blah. And the same goes for sign stealing in baseball. If that’s what you gotta do to win, as long as it’s within the rules, fine. But it’s completely uninteresting to me.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I was going more along the lines of Casey Matthews has to remember what sign Y means to know what play Z he’s supposed to run so that the opposing team can’t intercept the play call and blow up what Matthews was supposed to do.
For me it’s exciting to know that Team A knows exactly what Team B is going to do and right now it’s just a matter of luck, ability and execution that decides who wins. Not some super secret hand sign, signal or code that we were able to get you caught off guard with because you aren’t allowed to read our signals.
Two examples:
1. Onside kick at the end of a game. Everyone knows Team A is going to kick the onside kick. Team B lines up to specifically try and stop the onside kick. There’s no signal or code or hey let’s catch them off guard with this. It’s an onside kick coming and one of the most interesting times of a game.
2. Closing pitcher with one really good pitch. 3-2 count with 2 outs and the batter needs a hit to win the game. You know, I know, the entire world knows, what pitch that guy is going to throw. It’s a “can you hit it moment.” That’s exciting.
I think having to change up signs every week or every game would add a lot more that player X would need to process on a play-by-play basis and the times in-between where Team A knows exactly what Team B is going to do and now it’s a matter of execution and ability and not coaches signals would increase and create a more exciting game.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Maybe we’re arguing past each other. You seem to be focusing on the team whose “signs” are getting stolen and whether or not they can have success. Sure, I’ll agree it’s interesting when you’ve got a matchup like Mariano Rivera vs. Vlad Guerrero or something like that. Both guys know a cut fastball is coming, so who’s ability will win out? Sure, that’s a fun scenario.
What I’m talking about is more from the side of the team that’s stealing signs when the assumption is that the team being stolen from doesn’t know it. In your onside kick example, both teams know what’s coming, and both teams know the OTHER team knows what’s coming. That’s not the case in the scenario I’m talking about. One team doesn’t know the other team knows…if that makes sense. It ruins the strategic advantage of being on offense.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Also, please read my initial response. The “in a manner of speaking” really is key. I don’t have a problem with any of those things I mentioned (intentional walks, fouling at the end of b-ball games, intentional PI’s to prevent TD’s). Whenever those things happen, I find them less entertaining to watch, since they don’t really reward the superior effort that I enjoy about watching high level sports. But they’re part of the game, and there are penalties in place to ensure that they don’t create an unfair advantage. I’d be happier if they went away completely, but I won’t lie and say I would be opposed to a player on my favorite team doing one of those things if it helped win the game.
For whatever reason, the hand ball just struck me as an incredibly heady play. And somewhat sacrificial. The guy is kicked out of the next game and gives up a PK, but he did it anyway because that was the only thing he could do. And he wasn’t trying to play outside the rules (which is what I feel faking injuries and using PEDs is). He knew exactly what the consequences would be and was willing to pay them. I’m okay with that.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Using your hand to knock a ball away, even if it’s against the rules, is so far different from stealing signs to gain an advantage that the comparison isn’t even worth making.
I think the premise is comparable when talking about the “Spirit of Competition.” We so badly want games to be played within a framework that fits what we are expecting from a game and when something happens in a game that goes outside of that framework it throws us off our enjoyment and entertainment of it.
So yes, in the NFL stealing signs is against the rules, and in Soccer using your hands to stop a goal is against the rules. Yet, for you this violation of the rules “didn’t bother you” whereas if someone uses binoculars to steal a sign, it does.
All I’m saying is that I feel the same way about sign stealing. It doesn’t bother me (whether with or without “artificial” means). My coach used to say, “I’ll send the other team our playbook before a game if they want, because if we execute properly, whether or not they know what’s coming, shouldn’t stop us.”
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Sorry, I think your coach was either a fool, or said that in hyperbole as an attempt to motivate his players. My guess is the latter. Sign stealing is a deliberate attempt to give yourself an advantage over and above normal strategy and athletic ability. If you can do it within the game or using game film that’s widely available, fine. I think it takes away from the competition (and you need to be prepared to pay the in-game consequences if you get caught), but fine.
Using binoculars and secret practice filmers breaks the game. Now you’re completely outside the realm of what is considered the sport.
And I still don’t think the premise is comparable except in a completely general “both broke the rules” sense. Comparing those two scenarios tells us nothing. One guy broke the rules, knowing the consequences, using an athletic play that wasn’t premeditated. The remedy for the infraction was giving the wronged team an excellent opportunity to replicate what would have happened had the guy not used his hands.
The other involves something completely outside of actual gameplay, and the remedy can never justly compensate the wronged team (when there even IS a remedy – in baseball there isn’t). I don’t know how you can think it’s better when a hitter always knows what pitch is coming – pitch selection is part of a pitcher’s skill. And I don’t know how it’s better if a defense in football knows definitively what play is coming. Not even Chip Kelly runs the zone read every play.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Given today’s tech, I’d say it would say that if you wanted your signs secret, they better be changed weekly… or at least use a better encryption.
I feel like its part of the game to an extent
but what I don’t like is when a pitcher/catcher combo doesn’t change signs when a runner is on base, and then gets pissy when they’re stolen.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
I play, and if you’re not going to switch up signs or be stupid enough to make them easy to figure out, you better believe I’m going to steal them. It’s part of the game.
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t really know that I agree with this idea of the spirit of competition. You don’t want people breaking the spirit of the rules? Change the rules.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
I said “in a manner of speaking.” The rules are the rules, and in each of those cases, I think the rules (and the punishment for breaking them) are about as good as they’re going to get.
That doesn’t mean I always like it as a spectator. I’d rather see a receiver get rewarded for beating his man with a TD catch. I’d rather see a pitcher try to get a hitter out than walk him. I think those things are avoiding some of the physical competition (or circumventing the outcome of it) that sports are trying to create. But doing those things is part of the game, there are stipulations in place to deal with them, and that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with it. I’m wondering if Dave does, or if it’s just this soccer play that bothers him.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
oh, I've a resigned acceptance of it
basically, I get that there is nothing to be done. Its a freak situation, and there really isn’t anyway to write the rules that’s more fair.
Besides, its not like any of my teams havent gotten a cheap win here or there.
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
Future Tako Tuesday subjects
1. First concert you ever saw/Favorite concert you’ve seen
2. Your best tailgate/gameday traditions & your best after game traditions
3. Most overrated sporting event or team (er, nevermind – you’d all just vote Notre Dame)
4. Should Benzduck be granted tenure as the official ATQ Professor Emeritus of Duck Sports? Let’s vote!
5. Is Spencer Paysinger the foxiest Duck football player ever? Discuss.
6. Best variations of Mac & Cheese – Chili-Mac? Mac & Cheese bake? Seriously people, help me out here.
Mac n Cheese with hot dogs. Done and done. Next.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Mac & Cheese Bake 1000x better than hot dogs.
The best is Mac & Cheese with a bread crumb topping.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Have an extra seat at the dinner table tonight ?
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I feel like I know what you should bring to the Portland BBQ if you're coming.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
A few more suggestions:
I Hate Washington Day – A history lesson (How was it celebrated before we had computers to punch?)
Why College Football is better than the NFL
How your favorite song lyrics are REALLY about the Ducks (Bonus points if there’s some Rush involved because none of their songs make any sense)
Things to do at your first trip to Autzen
The AtQ Bucket List (The world is going to end in a couple of years so we better get to work!)
Keg Stickers for Dummies
The Best and Worst of college sports (Roasting the other team’s mascot: good. Rushing the field before the game is over: bad.)
(The world is going to end in a couple of years so we better get to work!)
The entire basis for voting for Palin in 2012!
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
Did you just suggest that Tako write an entire Tuesday on why Palin would make a good armageddon president?
Now I'm just messing with you
What is Revelations?
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
The process you go through when they brainwash you into believing produce doesn’t belong in beer. Step 4 in the process involves watching various Palin interviews. It must have been excruciating. You have my sumpathy.
The Book of Revelation is in the Bible and also refers to Palin, if I’m not mistaken.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
He was making fun of your pluralization of Revelation. I just assumed you had multiple copies.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-A-L-I-T-T-L-E-H-O-S-T-I-L-E"
I thought it was the sequel to Revelation, like Revelation Part II. Hence, Revelations.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Actually the beer part is in Genesis
Commandment #11 – Thou Shall NOT Put Produce in Thy Beer.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
It is in the Hebrew, I have’t translated the Greek yet.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
Mac&Cheese with hot dogs is disgusting.
I don’t know why people think its good. Now, Mac&Cheese with thick chunks of ham? Good stuff.
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
nasty
tuna fish is horrible. I have not eaten a can in about ten years.
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
I'm the opposite
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I'm good at everything." - Demetri Martin
i enjoy tuna fish
its a cheap source of protein for me when I’m away from home.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
its also one of the worst fishieries there is
tons of byproduct, leading to the death of all kinds of endangered species. In fact, four of the five kinds of tuna are endangered
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
I miss dolphin-flavored tuna.
That canned shit just doesn’t taste the same these days.
[em] this sig for rent [/em]
Hahahahahaha
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
don't worry
there’s still plenty of dolphin bycatch in your tuna. Along with delicious manta ray, shark, sea turtles—its a regular endangered species smorgasboard, enhancing the awesome flavor of your tuna.
/Greenpeace type rant now.
--Dave
Addicted to Quack, SBN's Oregon Ducks blog
I make a mean tuna quesadilla though.
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
tuna+cheese-noodles=disgusting.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
You're wrong.
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Ummm
You live in Tennessee. What the heck do you know about
tuna
or
quesadilla
Defending maligned chants since 2009
true
he knows about log cabins and plantations though.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
You know about reinforcing stupid stereotypes, apparently.
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
...as i sit here in my birkenstocks and listen to reggae music while looking at my "oh cannibus" glass I got in whistler.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Wait, that's not the axemen stereotype...
…as you sit there with your bicycle helmet on, listening to sesame street music while looking at your “Twilight” posters on your padded walls.
That’s more like it.
I want Canzano to stand there in that [expletive] white uniform, and with his Harvard mouth, extend Chip some [expletive] courtesy! Addicted to Quack
by Matt Daddy on Jul 6, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fatherknows best is way off base here.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
Are you more of a JoBro and Miley guy?
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's a try:
Sitting there with a no. 2 pencil sharpened to about three inches’ length slung above his left ear; Oregon basketball shorts; UO flipflops with white tube socks on; and a sweaty, sleeveless Quiksilver shirt.
Chip Kelly is my shepherd, there is nothing I shall want.
hey quinn's closer
the pencil is in my ear, i’m not wearing oregon shorts, i don’t own flip flops, i’m wearing 1 tube sock for my ankle brace and one ankle sock, and I don’t have any sleeveless shirts.
My god, they should take [The vuvuzelas] into the mountainous caves region of Pakistan and play them until Osama bin Laden comes running out, screaming, "OK, OK! I give!"
--Rick Reilly
O.o
Don't look those hoodie-clad Huskies in the eyes. They'll give you lupus.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jul 6, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I love tuna
very low fat, high protein and yummy, especially with pickles in it. But my kids don’t share my enthusiasm would consider it the highest sacrilege to put it in that manna from heaven known as Mac & Cheese.
Its okay, but definitely not what it use to be
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I'm good at everything." - Demetri Martin
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