Practice: Week 2, Day 1
by qrsouther on Aug 16, 2010 6:48 PM PDT
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PrintUnder another Hout's-eye-blue sky this afternoon, the Ducks came together after their first day off for practice. I got there early and was recognized by and met, to my surprise, by SBN favorites Pado (Tortuga12) and his cousin Connor (ConnorOSU). If there's one reason practices get closed down early this year, it's that Connor was being a sneaky snake today.
Anyway, on to the notes. They're kind of sparse today as I was distracted by Connor farting in my face and generally being a drunken conquistador.
- Nate Costa threw another unlucky pick (in what I seem to recall was 7-on-7s, but possibly 11-on-11) that was again tipped just behind the line by Bo Lokombo and this time intercepted by Marvin Johnson. I truly wouldn't put too much faith in what tweets you see about Costa being intercepted in practice. However, I will say that in 7-on-7s -- where Chip Kelly's invention of d-linemen hands emulated by rake-like objects with netting on them are used -- Costa's height seems to be really disturbing his throws over the line. Now that Masoli's gone, the coaches are not just yet done dealing with short quarterbacks and how to get them wider vision scopes and getting them out of the pocket.
- Practice began, seriously, with a few field goals being practiced. Maldonado attempted the first kick and missed badly. Beard nailed three in a row after that. Maldonado, too, got used to it and started making kicks pretty well. He even made a clutch field goal with a serious rush to win the period for his team in the final period of practice. Got some huge props from his teammates. I think the kicking competition between Beard and Maldonado will not be settled for a while.
- Costa-to-Cantu has looked really good on corner and out routes. They have great timing. Hopefully Blake can get in the game a little more this year.
- While both Costa and Thomas didn't look great running the ball on zone reads today, Hawkins looked great on one particular triple option play. He faked the dive, took it himself, then did a fake-pitch move that completely froze the outside defender and turned it upfield for a gain of about 12. If Hawkins can get better at passing, staying in the pocket patiently, and handling snaps with ease, I would feel completely content with him running our offense. He's a very good athlete.
- Both Barner (hand) and James (knee) were in red shirts today. James left the field for a good portion of practice early on but returned soon after. I don't think we have much to worry about with James. He seems confident that he's fine. There's no reason for them to lie about the seriousness of an injury three weeks before the games even start.
- ConnorOSU is the Vince Strang of his generation.
- The passing game looked really good all day. If not for a few drops by various receivers and tight ends, I'd say it was the best day for the passing offense yet. I think we will be a much better passing team this year regardless of who our quarterback is.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or the Addicted To Quack Moderators. FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable Oregon fans.
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nice
write up. i was looking at scout n they made it seem like DT had the obvious edge today. thats good in imo i think he should start. what do u think?
I think he's looked much better than I expected
but his inconsistent spiral still worries me.
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
Costa's picks
You call them bad luck, but are we sure it’s not his release point that’s contributing to the tipped balls? I know I’ve harped on this a bunch, but it really concerns me, and it seems to be playing out in camp now.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
You mean the shot put?
I'LL BITCH SLAP YOU WITH ROBERT SWIFT!!!
by My Name is Bryce on Aug 16, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I seriously was about to write release point but I just couldn't give you the gratification.
My yoke is heavy.
Really though, I think his height is more of a factor than his release point.
While a higher release point couldn’t hurt, I suppose, I think Costa’s height is at fault for the balls tipped at the line. Costa’s release point in proportion to his height is no lower than Thomas’. Bennett, on the other hand, has the highest release point of any of our quarterbacks. Food for thought.
My yoke is heavy.
I've seen plenty of Thomas' balls get tipped/swatted/hit those samauri things
I think that while its a cause for concern, Costa’s INT total is overblown. Thomas could easily have 3 more, and Costa 3 less.
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
What you say is very true.
I was pretty surprised at how much Thomas’ balls get batted by those objects. I’m not sure why it plagues him so much more than the other quarterbacks.
My yoke is heavy.
Probably because he’s releasing so freaking high, that his short-mid range balls dont go up very high. So if his throw is the slightest bit low, it’s liable to hit those things.
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
Two inch height difference isn’t going to amount to a high enough angular difference. I actually am starting to lean towards Gorby’s camp on this one. I’ve never observed a release point problem in any of his games, but the shear amount of tips and INTs is somewhat alarming to my unwitnessed eyes.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-T-H-E-N-E-E-D-T-O-I-N-V-I-T-E-T-H-O-S-E-G-U-Y-S"
I'm much less knowledgeable about mechanics than you are, Joe, so you'll have to help me here.
And this is a serious question, because I’m not really sure of the question we’re framing. Is the matter of Costa’s passes getting tipped behind or at the line a matter of angular trajectory? Let’s say Costa, standing just under 6’ tall, releases the ball at about a height of 5’10" off the ground (I’d say, from observing him up close, he releases the ball at just under the crown of his helmet.) He’s aiming for a target that is at roughly the same height (aiming for, say, David Paulson’s shoulder pads.) He’s releasing it at an angle directly perpendicular to his posture, and with a bullet pass’s velocity. So his release comes at 90º angle, or somewhere close to it, wouldn’t it?
His pass is then disrupted by one of the “samurai things” (neither Will nor I can find a good term to describe them.) Because it all happens so fast I haven’t been able to tell exactly where it hits the netted rakes that are supposed to mean defensive linemen’s outstretched hands, but I’d assume it’s pretty low on them. They go up to about 7’6" high, I’d say, which is pretty realistic for a rather tall lineman’s hands up in the air, shoulder pads willing. And they’re about 3.5 yards from the quarterback at this point.
I’m not sure that really helps us to answer our question, as any quarterback trying to throw a ball through a wall of hands that are between 13 and 18 inches higher than his release point will have trouble, even a tall quarterback like, say, Ropert, as he would be aiming downward toward the receiver, and those would even be prone to getting his pass swatted.
So let’s remove the netted rakes for a play. Costa drops back, he sees Paulson five yards deep over the middle, and lets it fly. He’s still throwing it at ≤90º angle. The ball is tipped by a real life lineman’s hand, and intercepted. Is it Costa’s fault because he’s short, or because of his release point?
Even so, does the release point dictate the angle, really? Almost all of Costa’s interceptions have come on under routes where it got tipped by a real life lineman or linebacker (not a netted rake.) He, along with the other quarterbacks, should all run into this problem, theoretically. That’s, I think, why the drag routes that go right behind the line are so dangerous and aren’t run more often.
So in a roundabout way of saying things, is Costa just having bad luck in that his passes on under routes are getting picked? Or is it his release point or even his height? The more I think about it, I think it’s just the route.
My yoke is heavy.
By all means, please correct me if I am wrong
But isn’t the point of the “stick things” to get the QB to pass through lanes/windows between the defensive linemen rather than over them? If he is passing through lanes, it seems to me that his release point and height are not too relevant in the first place. As you said, no QB is able to pass over something 7’ 6" to the middle of the field.
Self-anointed President of the Kenjon Barner fan club.
jeremiah masoli was short and didn't have a high release point
so i don’t know if it’s just because he’s shorter
t seems to me that his release point and height are not too relevant in the first place
That’s exactly the conclusion I drew as I wrote on about it. I think the point is both to have them pass through the hands, and also be mindful that there will be hands at times. When the hands go up, either you tuck it and run or you find a way to thread it.
My yoke is heavy.
I'll agree with this and add one other thing
to me it sounds like one of the biggest problems is with Costa’s eyes and vision telegraphing his throws. Especially in 7 on 7 drills the QB has to not telegraph where he is throwing the ball.
The problem is not strictly a height and release point problem, but can be enhanced if the guy is not taller or has a low release point because the QB will not only be throwing through hands and arms but also helmets and shoulders which cuts down his windows even more. It can also be a problem if the guy has a slow or long wind up (see: Tebow, Tim) which will give the guys closer to the QB more time to read where the QB is throwing and get a hand up.
But Costa has to do a better job of looking off the defenders both in the secondary as well as at the line and get the ball out quickly to the WR through the correct throwing window.
With the speed we have a WR a quick slant has to be utilized to get guys open across the middle as well as keep defenses honest and not just covering our out routes.
Hey Daisy, git me anudder one!
Addicted to Quack
The QB still has to pass over the line, which isn’t as difficult as it might seam. The windows are primarily for visual cues, so they can see the open receiver. Depending on the route and speed of the receiver, you’ll have to try and get the ball over a defender’s head. The lane is rarely more than a couple feet. Less so if the defensive line does a stunt.
If you’re taller, you can bring a little bit more zip because you’re able to throw it with a more favorable trajectory, which gives the defense less time to react. Literally, milliseconds can be the difference between a tipped pass or not.
I just watched some highlights of Costa, and I can’t find anything particularly wrong with his release. It is a bit low, but not alarming. I can’t find many close ups of his throwing motion right now. But from what I can tell, it is about level with is ear, which is great for a small and compact throwing motion. Most QBs are taught to throw like this.
But it’s like I said, I haven’t seen the plays. I haven’t seen the practices. I don’t KNOW what is going on, But with his tipped/INT against UCLA, the tipped pass in the spring game, all these tips in fall camp. It just really is alarming to me. The QB isn’t entirely faultless for tipped passes.
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-T-H-E-N-E-E-D-T-O-I-N-V-I-T-E-T-H-O-S-E-G-U-Y-S"
Honestly, I’m just asking the question based on the little I’ve seen of him (UCLA, other garbage time, spring game). I am by no means an expert on the release points of QBs, but I’ve been throwing footballs and baseballs all my life (and been watching people do it), and Costa’s motion just strikes me as odd. And it did the same for my dad, who lived on the same street growing up as Vince Ferragamo (which is pretty irrelevant, but I thought I would get a good Axemen namedrop in there).
I agree with you somewhat that his decision-making and timing is probably more at fault for these tipped ball picks (or, as you said, plain bad luck). But the low release point can’t help matters. It’s simple geometry/physics/probability/whatever that the lower his release point (and the shorter he is), the more balls are going to get tipped. It’s not always a case of throwing it directly over a lineman with his arms completely outstretched, which is a tough proposition for all but the tallest QBs. Sometimes, the d-lineman will barely get his hand up off the block, and where a higher release point would clear that barrier (maybe at 6’3"), Costa’s throwing motion would make a tip more likely.
Again, I’m just asking and not trying to assume or anything. It’s just that I’ve seen the tape and now I read these reports and it concerns me. I appreciate your responses, Quinn and Will.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
So how does the new turf look?
I’m still trying to picture Autzen without a hunchbacked field. Can’t wait to see it myself.
Average Score Since 2004: Oregon 42 Washington 17
I don't think we can go in there at least until tomorrow.
According to axemen23, the scrimmage tomorrow will be in Autzen. Take his word with a grain of salt, though.
My yoke is heavy.
My word comes from Moseley
so blame him ;)
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
Oh hey, you dropped something.
AtQ's Resident Baseball Purist.
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Aug 16, 2010 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Well what?
It’s not like i’m taking a wild guess. I had the same concerns, so I went and figured it out.
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
as far as anyone knows it'll start around 2
it’s not a “scrimmage” apparently but more a practice with officials and full contact. I’m still looking forward to it as a really good evaluation point though. I’d love to have an ATQ viewing section with whoever shows.
"Our expectations are to win every game we play. I don’t know if that’s ever going to happen .... but no one ever rises to low expectations." --Chip Kelly
i'll be there tomorrow
and leave a message of how to identify me at the practice in the quack fix.
i’m really looking forward to see a practice in person
Yeah
I’m more of a Football “watcher” than a Football “player”. Anyway, it was cool hanging with you.
September 4th, 4:45 PM, ESPN
I'm interested most in interceptions,
getting the ball and getting off the field.
Also I’ve some concerns on tackling, keeping low and wrapping up.
Not with Boyette.
"If you can't copy 'em, don't imitate ''em."
YOGI BERRA
Interception?
Huard gonna go back to throw.
by runfast on Aug 19, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sets up looks, throws towards the corner of the end zone
it’s spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-T-H-E-N-E-E-D-T-O-I-N-V-I-T-E-T-H-O-S-E-G-U-Y-S"
by JShufelt on Aug 19, 2010 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
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