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MLB should take lessons from college baseball

It's Sunday, May 15, and with the series tied at one game apiece, the Oregon Ducks and the Stanford Cardinal are locked in a back-and-fourth battle to decide the series. The Ducks have a 6-5 lead, but the Cardinal are threatening to tie the game late.

Stanford has runners on first and second with two outs in the top of the eighth. The Cardinal hitter, Zack Jones, sends a single through the hole between first base and second base.

The Cardinal third base coach waves the runner, Dave Giuliani, home from second. Oregon right fielder Aaron Jones fires the ball home, as a bang-bang play is about to develop.

Oregon catcher Brett Hambright fields the throw about four feet up the third baseline with the 200-pound Giuliani barreling down the line. It all created for a textbook play at the plate.

The NCAA implemented a "Collision Rule" (Rule 8.7 in the college baseball rulebook) prior to the 2011 season. The rule states, in part, "Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate."

If the umpire determines that the contact at the plate violates Rule 8.7, the runner is out and can be ejected.

Giuliani tried to avoid Hambright, but the tag was applied keeping it a one-run game.

Now we'll travel to The Show.

I don't need to describe to the horrific sight for San Francisco Giants fans in late May at AT&T Park. It's what spawned from the Scott Cousins and Buster Posey collision that could change one of the more iconic plays in professional baseball.

Star-divide

 

Different opinions, including the one of Giants General Manager Brian Sabean, have been tossed around where people have debated the legality or cleanliness of the play.

It has been a shame that Cousins has been vilified the way he has. This was by the book in terms of not only the runner, but where Posey positioned himself as well. Posey positioned himself slightly up the first base line in order to leave the back side of the plate open for the runner.

The throw from Nate "The Great" Schierholtz arrived at the plate before Cousins, meaning Cousins' job--especially in extra innings of a tie game--is to dislodge the ball. Posey wasn't able to come up with the ball, but it was too late for Cousins to change his approach to the plate.

The play illustrates the cost of a rule that seems to tailor to the interests of the fans rather than the players.

A couple of the most lasting images in professional baseball are the Ray Fosse, Pete Rose collision in the 1970 All-Star Game, as well as "Pudge" Rodriguez raising the ball after being mowed down by J.T. Snow, clinching the 2003 NLDS for the Florida Marlins.

But the season or career ending collisions are never mentioned for more than just a couple of days. Apparently it takes the fall of one of baseballs golden boys to start a conversation that's long overdue in baseball--I think Indians' catcher Carlos Santana would agree.

Baseball is not a contact sport, yet the MLB jeopardizes the seasons and careers of catchers by selling the excitement of a home plate collision. The MLB can't sell its product to a wide enough audience on the basis of the intricacies of the game. If they could, last years World Series wouldn't have had one of the worst rating in its history. It answered the question of what would prevail between great pitching and great hitting?

But that didn't sell, so the game has to sell aspects that bring shock value.

In the meantime, teams like the Giants have to learn the reasons why a franchise player cannot play catcher.

Why would a team build around a twenty-something year old that risks being bowled over on a nightly basis? Players like Joe Mauer and Posey are born to be catchers, and the suits writing their checks already have to prepare for a short shelf life for their behind the dish guy--the natural wear-and-tear of the position forces many catchers to change positions.

Then the league decides to turn catchers into human bowling pins.

Defenders of this rule point to the history and roots of the game--collisions have always been a part of the game. Well, there was a time when African Americans were not allowed to play. There was also a time where it was acceptable for a runner to take-out a middle infielder turning a double play; regardless of how far from second base he was standing.

Maybe the issue isn't as much with what fans are buying, as it is with what professional baseball is selling.

If baseball were a contact sport, runners would have free reign sliding into second base. The purity of baseball is honored on the field, except at home plate. That is where the game is cheapened.

It's no wonder the public didn't buy in to the 2010 World Series--it didn't have the shock value the league has decided to sell.

My hope is that Joe Torre and the MLB look at the changes made at the college level. The NCAA doesn't want to endanger the futures of their young players, and the MLB shouldn't either. How often can we say the NCAA gets it right? But in this case, they are the blueprint for honoring the way baseball should be played.

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No offense, but it seems like Giants fans seem to be the only ones that are really clamoring for this rule to be changed. It’s part of baseball. It’s not going to go away. Not that it needs to, anyway.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 10:16 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Minny out of it by June.

TB barely holding on. Just as as predicted by some.

Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.

by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 17, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

TB has one of the best records in the AL, despite missing their best player for 60 games.

The Twins aren’t looking good, but the Central is weak, and they’ve also been without their best player (possibly the best player in the AL) for the entire season. I don’t recall those things in your prediction.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Random, but ok.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it was your reasoning behind those conclusions that we found specious. I don’t recall you mentioning anything about their star players missing the entire season. It’s likely that both would have been worth about 3 wins to this point, which would put Tampa Bay one game behind the Yankees and Minnesota within the realm of respectability.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with the idea that its only SF fans that want it changed

But I do agree the rule shouldn’t be changed. Its part of the game.

"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely

by skywaker9 on Jun 17, 2011 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s part of baseball.

Like how Turkey is a part of Thanksgiving, right?

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Punting is part of fourth down.

THAT'S RIGHT, Kenny Wheaton you did. You cut back into GREATNESS.

by HoodRiverDuck on Jun 17, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Three is part of colors

I credit my urine for the victory.
http://taborsbigleaguechew.blogspot.com

by mackjones23 on Jun 17, 2011 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

The part of the problem is just that someone is barreling down at the catcher. It’s the odd position the catcher is put in.

The throw isn’t coming from the mound, it’s coming from the outfield. That’s a throw that even the most accurate and strongest of outfielders won’t perfectly hit their mark. This causes the catcher to reach out in an awkward and vulnerable position to grab the ball, while still being in the last line of defense.

Look at Posey’s leg when contact is initiated. He had to torque his body from the catch to make the tag

I would have no problem with them trying to minimize above-waist contact in this situation in the MLB, because this isn’t just a freak accident.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 11:24 AM PDT reply actions  

It’s Carlos Santana, not Gonzalez.

I agree with the points you made here.

Also, can we get above the “it’s part of the game” argument? I think there’s a valid argument in favor of plate collisions, but that’s not it. Try to come up with an argument that doesn’t support spiking, no African-Americans, and plenty of other problems that have long hurt the national past time.

Adopted Giant: Ryan Verdugo. The next Javier Lopez.
goldenbearlair.com

by MadBum on Jun 17, 2011 11:26 AM PDT reply actions  

can we get above the "it’s part of the game" argument?

Not with MLB, a sport/league with it’s head so far up it’s own ass, any change would be unthinkable.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 17, 2011 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

In my mind, the catcher has his option of hanging in there and trying to get the out or say "It's not worth getting run over."

If a GM or a manager wants to tell their catcher to avoid collisions like that (like Billy Beane did to Kurt Suzuki), fine. Leave it up to their discretion, but for pete’s sake, don’t make it illegal.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Forgot to add:

The reason that Posey’s leg got effed up was because he positioned himself horribly. You can’t set your leg down on the ground as vulnerably as he did and not expect to get hurt.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can if the runner isn’t about to plow you like a linebacker.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not much different than a first baseman needing to stretch out to make a catch. He’s not going to take his foot off the plate.

A catcher needs to reach out and put his body in a vulnerable position to catch the ball and still be in position to make the tag. Those two points don’t always line up in a favorable and safe manner.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why not? Why not just avoid the collision entirely? Why even make it an option for players to get run over? And if you’re in favor of that, why not allow runners to tackle the shortstop on a play at second to dislodge the ball?

It’s a fun play to watch, I’m not going to lie. But there’s no point in allowing this type of thing and creating a chance for injury. The game is better with Buster Posey around, even if he does play for the Giants. Make catchers stay out of the baseline unless they have the ball, and make runners slide. Seems like it makes sense.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Make catchers stay out of the baseline unless they have the ball, and make runners slide. Seems like it makes sense.

I agree 100%.
Posey wasn’t even in the baseline. It was a tactical decision by Cousins to force the drop when he could have easily slid into home.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

You agree with me again? Now you’re going to have to take ANOTHER shower today. It’s a dangerous path you’re walking, Shu.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

This sort of stuff doesn’t just happen in the 3rd inning. It happens in extra innings. It can be a determining factor if a team makes it to the playoffs, advances to the playoffs, or extends or even winning the world series.

Yeah… the catcher will just get out of the way and not do his job. That will go over really well.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well then, the catcher can decide if he wants to risk an injury, stay in there and take it, or he can get out of the baseline and try to apply the tag in a different manner.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m really sure he’ll be able to make the decision. Give me a break.

--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog

by jtlight on Jun 17, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's a bullshit argument

You can’t always just “try to apply the tag in a different manner”. The catcher can’t decide where the ball is being thrown to. The catcher can’t decide where the base runner is going to be.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, then, let's just give the runner no options then.

If the throw gets there in time, why, let’s just automatically call the runner out!

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

If the throw is there in time, the catcher catches it cleanly, and the runner doesn’t make a spectacular play to avoid the tag, then yes, he should be out. That’s how baseball works.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t even want that decision to be on the table. Because except in the rare cases that you mentioned, most catchers, either at the behest of their coaches, their teammates, or their general sense of machismo, will take the risk the injury to make the out.

I don’t want to see more injuries in baseball. Especially when there’s a practical way to avoid them. If the catcher is in the basepath without the ball, the runner is awarded home. If the runner makes illegal contact with the catcher as the rule is in college, he is out. It might not be perfect, but it’s better than broken ankles for star players.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

The thing that grinds my gears most about all this is that this argument was rare to hear until precious Buster got injured. I watched one of your Angels (Darin Erstad) truck Johnny Estrada back in ‘04 or ’05, and didn’t hear any moaning about these types of plays. I didn’t moan either. Like I said, it’s part of the game and I don’t believe that it should change.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

It was in ‘05, and Estrada was out for a week. I’m sorry you didn’t moan. Maybe you should have.

Like I said, it can be a fun play to watch, but that doesn’t overcome the risk of good players being out for weeks or months with avoidable injuries.

There are lots of practices that stick around for a long time that don’t get complained about until there’s a disaster. That doesn’t make those practices any more reasonable. As we’ve mentioned several times around here the past few days, tradition is a poor reason to continue to do something.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe if they had a rule in place he would have had a better career…

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually read an interview with Estrada where he acknowledged that the play is part of the game and that he feels no ill well towards Erstad.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

That doesn’t change the fact that if a rule was in place (You know… where it wasn’t a part of the game), he would have been better off.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

And he shouldn’t, just as I don’t think Cousins should be vilified for the play he made. Yes, there was room for him to slide, but it’s standard practice for these types of plays.

It’s the standard practice that should be changed.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not blaming Cousins or Posey. It’s a part of the current game, and they are playing it by those rules.

Those rules need to change.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s football, apparently.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m a fan of both. They’re both great games in their own way.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

And like Recess Peanut Butter Cups, these two great tastes taste better together.

Helmets and pads. You can’t tackle the outfielder until the ball is touching the glove, but then let him have it. On strike two, you can kick a field goal like a home run.

Oh dear, bad mushrooms again, pardon me.

Everybody was kung foo fighting, now it's all ho hum.

by Bill Musgrave on Jun 17, 2011 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bullshit again...

Hell… He wasn’t even on the baseline when went to tag.

The whole thing took him completely off guard. Posey reached out for the catch, spun back to tag him at the baseline, and Cousins wasn’t even there aiming for the plate.

Hell, I don’t even know what other position he COULD have been in to prevent this injury while still trying to make a play on the ball.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hell, if you don’t believe me, ask Johnny Bench.

“But Buster is laying in front of home plate, and it’s like having a disabled car in the middle of a four-lane highway. You’re just going to get smacked.”

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Image right as he caught the ball...

How dare he get hurt being 2 feet in front of the plate while a 200 lbs man came bull charging directly at him when he could have attacked the left side of the plate instead.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

His leg is sitting on top of the damn plate.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Umm, those pictures clearly show otherwise.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m sorry. I should have known better to try and reason or argue with you.

My mistake.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

How the hell are you supposed to tell from that picture? The umpire's leg covers up Posey's.

Look at the first picture that I posted in this thread.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

That picture you posted is clearly fractions of a second prior to the next picture that Shu posted. And in Shu’s picture, Posey’s leg is a good foot from home plate.

I may get thrown into solitary for saying this, but are you being obtuse?

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not being obtuse, but you're not going to change my mind.

I mind as well stop arguing, because none of us are budging. We can agree to disagree.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Son, you're forgetting yourself.

THAT'S RIGHT, Kenny Wheaton you did. You cut back into GREATNESS.

by HoodRiverDuck on Jun 17, 2011 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't understand the reference.

"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly

by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 17, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shawshank Redemption.

“I will take you out of that one-bunk Hilton and cast you down among the Sodomites. You hear me? You catchin’ my drift? Or am I being obtuse?”

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

He might be the best villain in movie history.

THAT'S RIGHT, Kenny Wheaton you did. You cut back into GREATNESS.

by HoodRiverDuck on Jun 17, 2011 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Still one of my favorite lines ever:

“Put your trust in the Lord. Your ass belongs to me. Welcome to Shawshank.”

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have no vested interest in the argument

but if you’re really arguing that his leg is on top of the plate in this picture, you need to get your eyes checked:

"the putz from that UO blog, Matt Daddy" - Steve Tannen
The Daily Faberian

by Matt Daddy on Jun 17, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

His actual positioning in regard to the basepath was fine. Perfect, actually.

It’s the actual position of his leg and foot that were poor. You have to be on your feet ready to rock back and absorb the hit. That would have kept him from breaking his leg.

However, all of that is pointless if Cousins is required by the rules to slide, which he had plenty of room to do.

Defending maligned chants since 2009

by Gorbachav5 on Jun 17, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

The reaction time from the catch to the bracing wasn’t enough.

It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-S-N-A-R-K-Y"

by JShufelt on Jun 17, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you two being acute?

Everybody was kung foo fighting, now it's all ho hum.

by Bill Musgrave on Jun 17, 2011 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with and endorse this article

Though I am a hopelessly biased Giants fan.

The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS

by norcalnick on Jun 17, 2011 10:52 PM PDT reply actions  

LSU's QB and Hx Major + additional Jefferson Photos

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/6/16/2227709/jordan-jeffersons-new-nickname-george

"What you are entrusted to do as a coach is to create an environment where your players have a chance to be successful." CHIP KELLY

by Famous Duck on Jun 19, 2011 8:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Oregon/LSU game poll

Oregon fans need to vote for the Ducks over the LSU Tigers in the College Football’s Big Game Poll ( http://collegefootballbiggamepoll.blogspot.com/ ). Right now the Ducks are getting crushed.

by TigerFaceSports on Jun 20, 2011 6:43 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh, wow. That's really important.

"What you are entrusted to do as a coach is to create an environment where your players have a chance to be successful." CHIP KELLY

by Famous Duck on Jun 20, 2011 6:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

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