DebAte-T-Q: The Role of Media in Sports with Rob Moseley
In the last decade there has been a major shift in the production and distribution of the media market. Many customers have moved from the local daily newspaper, to more national media markets, to online news sites to blogs and social networking to real time reporting online.
Recently, I wrote a post with my feelings about a perceived hypocrisy in some of the opinion pieces being put out lately. Whether I was right or wrong in my accusations, it brings up an interesting point: What is the role of the media and journalism in sports these days? The always objective and extremely talented Rob Moseley is going to help me figure this out.
Matt: Personally, I think media in general is nothing more than the medium I use to experience my favorite teams. That medium can be the TV and its commentators, blogs, twitter, newspapers, etc. When I chose to make use of one of these mediums I want accurate and informative reporting. I think personal opinion should be held to a minimum or be clearly categorized in the op/ed section so I know what to expect when I'm there.
For example, nothing irritates me more than watching a college football game on Saturday and listening to 5 minutes of Bob Davie ramble on about what he would do in a "situation like this" and then the subsequent questioning of the coach for not following his advice. Oh really Bob? Is that how you amassed that stellar 19-16 record at Notre Dame your last 3 seasons? Give me some context of what is happening on the field, tell me what certain situations are more important than others, but try and leave your opinion out of it.
For some of the quality we lose in blogs, online sites and twitter, at times I'd much rather have multiple accounts of what happened so I can make an informed opinion for myself instead of having to wade through one person's recount and try and decipher what is fact and relevant and what is supposition.
You also have the major problem with bias in the mainstream media. And no I'm not talking about liberal versus conservative. I mean those people that work under the guise of journalist and yet spend every moment on their radio show or word of their article editorializing. It is impossible for them to remain objective. And when they are called out on this bias they defend it with "they're a journalist" and they're just trying to report the facts.
I find it very hard to see the word I not in quotations and believe the piece isn't opinion. And so many writers move in and out of fact and opinion even within the same commentary that it's impossible to tell where one begins and the other ends. It really makes you question the motivation of the author especially considering these are usually their most controversial columns. Are they doing it just for the sake of controversy because they know it will drive web traffic or do they actually believe it? If you really believe it, then why the shock when called out on it? If you didn't want criticism of your article then don't put opinion in there in the first place.
Rob: As you noted in your opening, the media market has become extremely stratified in recent years due to the Internet. Consider the method by which most fans digest the developments of a college football game. First, they watch it, live or on TV, so they've got the basic facts down. If it's on TV, they're getting play by play and a little analysis from the primary TV guy, and then commentary and analysis from the commentator (which is Bob Griese's role, if I'm not mistaken; you're hating on him for doing exactly what his job description requires, though perhaps you wish his analysis were more schematic than big-picture). These days, the fan may also be on Twitter, where he or she goes for deeper insights into the developments in the game, but perhaps also some analysis and commentary, too, from a trusted voice, probably the team's beat writer (I hope!).
OK, now the game's over, and the fan is trolling message boards for fan reactions, and blog posts from traditional and "new" media (I'd put ATQ in the latter category) for even more perspective on the game. Here I disagree a little with one of your statements; the fan may be looking for more facts about the game at this point, sure, things he might have missed, but he's also trying to get a sense of what the results means in the big picture — what players stood out and what that means for their futures, what the final score might indicate about the team's chances the rest of the season, how it fits with other results from around the conference/country. Some of this requires the assimilation of basic information, like scores and standings, but the savvy fan was probably already checking those during the game using a smart phone. At this point, he's looking for people to put all of that into a nice tidy package -- what does it all mean?
As the night goes on, highlight packages begin appearing on television. The basic facts of the package are narrated as it runs, but as soon as it's over, the "talking heads" on ESPN and such get on to further analysis; why things went down the way they did, how it happened, and what it means for the future. By the end of the night, the fan has a really detailed picture of what exactly happened in the game. And only THEN, the next morning, does the newspaper arrive, with a bunch more photos to enjoy, and sidebars on potentially overlooked elements of the game, and a game story that attempts to go beyond what the fan already learned from SportsCenter, and also a column putting it all in perspective.
The stark fact is that most fans digest the basic details of a game while it's going on. And because TV and Internet coverage is so extensive, that could potentially include a TON of detail, all before the game is over. And so when the media offers coverage after the fact, it has to take all of that into account. The final score and basic statistics don't cut it anymore. Consumers already have that information. They want something more. For proof, look no further than the fact that all these various media are in business.
What we journalists count on is for fans to be savvy enough to recognize where in the food chain they're getting their information. If you're reading a newspaper, in print or online, are you reading a news reporter like me, or a columnist like Schroeder? If you're reading my work, is it a news story, or a blog post, which has more liberal guidelines as far as offering opinion? Journalists take for granted that readers are making those distinctions. If they're not, perhaps that's something we need to address in more constructive way.
Regarding the inclusion of too much "personal opinion," these days, even news stories now probably contain more analysis (which a journalist wouldn't consider biased opinion, but more like informed speculation) than some readers are comfortable with. I'll acknowledge that. But again, print writers are covering an event that has been over for hours, or days, or weeks, and need to provide a fresh perspective. It's what we can do to remain relevant in the digital age, in which the basic information we used to provide is no longer "news" by the time we provide it, in some cases.
The exception to this is long-form investigative pieces that shed light on new details that are hard to uncover. But those are expensive, and the revenue hit felt by the industry has resulted in less and less of that, as writers on smaller staffs thinned by layoffs simply scramble to cover each day's news as it happens rather than ignore it to dive into a larger project. You can complain about THAT all you want, and I'll agree, but the simple facts are that A) a lot of consumers these days don't want to pay for news, which is going to affect quality, and B) readers want news "now" and are incredibly impatient; hence, when something happens in college football, Andy Staples and Stewart Mandel and Pat Forde and Mark Schlabach and Dennis Dodd and Matt Hayes and Pete Thamel all have analysis stories published within an hour or two, putting pressure on us local guys to keep up with that time frame. Again, you can say all you want it would be better if writers were allowed more time to work, but the audience demands immediacy these days, and to suggest otherwise would be naive.
As for the motivation of columnists, I think it could be best described as wanting to set an intellectual tone, meaning steering the conversation. A columnist wants to be compelling, and thought-provoking. A columnist wants to be interesting. A columnist wants to have readers thinking and talking about his or her columns. That, and not "clicks" or "selling papers" or "getting headlines" is what drives most of them, I think. Most journalists are ideas people. They want to be recognized and respected for having original, compelling ideas that fans enjoy considering. And I don't think any of them mind being "called out" or questioned about their work; that would simply be evidence that they are indeed influencing the market for ideas on any given subject. But, figure that they spent some time coming to their conclusion before writing a column, and so will probably be ready and willing to defend it quite aggressively.
Editorializing IS journalism, by the way. It's just not straight news reporting. Again, these are distinctions we assume readers are making, and if they're not, that's probably at the root of any disconnect you perceive.
Matt: First of all, I was talking about Bob Davie, ex Notre Dame coach. Bob Griese is a different color commentator who let his personal opinions get him a swift kick in the pants on ESPN.
As for the multitude of ways that fans partake and digest their favorite teams, I think I'm hearing you say that the role of media is to find its niche and then produce consistent, timely and quality pieces. Whether that be tweets from their favorite reporter (nice plug by the way), blog posts or updates about ramifications of the game afterwards, game threads from their favorite blog site, or highlights from their favorite sports show. The paper coming later adds insights from behind the scene, interviews that fans aren't privy to and sometimes a different perspective altogether about the greater meaning. It's the fans job to take in as much from these outlets as they can, sift through the mass of information and come to their own conclusion about what they are reading or seeing. I don't disagree with this. Fans are media consumers and have a responsibility to make informed buying decisions about where to spend their time or money.
I just find it troubling that the lines between these mediums gets so easily blurred. No, I have no idea exactly what liberal guidelines you have for a blog post versus a normal report. I read your stuff because it's accurate, timely and quality. Also, when does a highlight reel on ESPN go from factual reporting to driving a specific narrative? If they decided to dedicate 55 minutes of their hour long show to SEC football and then spend 5 minutes at the end running through final scores from the night from the west coast, is that because they are playing to their viewership in the South or because they want to drive further ratings in their SEC game of the week? I don't begrudge any media source from trying to make a few bucks by pandering to their base or creating a little controversy, I just think that the intentions of media outlets and the blurred lines between what is factual reporting and what is opinion based turns a bunch of media consumers off.
On top of that, because there is a lack of education and understanding by the consumer base, it makes it really easy to jump to conclusions about the intention of a writer or media figure when they do create controversy. Let alone controversy about one of their favorite teams! That doesn't mean it's right, but making the media the scapegoat for why someone doesn't want to hear something about their team is the path of least resistance for many fans.
Finally, the need for relevancy and providing a fresh perspective with such a saturation already in the marketplace will only continue to blur the lines greater and frustrate the consumer. In my opinion the guys/gals that concentrate their craft on factual reporting and let their consistent quality content set the intellectual tone will be the successful ones long term, for reporters and columnist alike.
Rob: Davie, Griese, whoever. The point was, getting on color commentators for offering their commentary is tilting at windmills a bit, no?
I guess we need to come to an understanding about something: How are you defining "factual reporting"?
Let me try to root this in a real-life situation. Earlier this spring, I did a couple of blog posts on "Five players who stood out in the spring" on each side of the ball, something like that. Basically, guys who I thought had helped themselves quite a bit in April. For starters, that's the sort of thing I wouldn't have been free to do in the paper; it's not "straight news" as we call it, but more like commentary/analysis, which is what a blog is for in my mind (along with passing on news and links, etc.)
Anyway, to my larger point: How come nobody jumped all over my rear end for offering opinions in that case? Those weren't facts. Those were just my (informed) opinions. Did it turn readers off? To the contrary, I think they were appreciated. As are "opinion" pieces by guys like Canzano and Schroeder when they write positively about the Ducks' prognosis, which does happen, even if those don't draw as much attention as the others.
Where I think you're treading into dangerous waters here is, you only seem to take issue when a reporter/columnist offers analysis/commentary that puts Oregon in a negative light. Covering Kiko Alonso and not Mike Parker. Canzano casting doubts on this or that element of the program from time to time. Schroeder wading into the Willie Lyles situation.
If you're only going to make these points when it's to defend your team on the occasions that it might look bad to outside observers, the argument loses some of its merit.
...
There you have it. Rob makes some excellent points with regard to the nuances between media members, judgments by the fans about the intentions of the media and fan responsibility when consuming media sources. What are your thoughts? I know there are a number of aspiring journalists on the site, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the role of media in sports today.
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Did RobMoseleyFanboy23 get you guys the hook-up for this interview?
I jest, I jest.
"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 9, 2011 9:33 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Actually no.
Rob and I emailed back and forth a bit after my Mike Parker post and what came out of that conversation was some pretty good insight from him about the role of the media and how they are viewed by fans these days. I asked if he’d be willing to put it together with me in a small little debate format and he was gracious enough to oblige.
I truly appreciate Rob’s willingness to be accessible and professionalism.
"the putz from that UO blog, Matt Daddy" - Steve Tannen
The Daily Faberian
I had a feeling that it came about because of that post…
Props to Rob for taking part. Lots of writers probably wouldn’t have obliged so willingly.
"I'll give any teller who gives me a lollipop 4 stars."-Chip Kelly
by TennesseeQuackAttack8 on Jun 9, 2011 9:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Believe it or not, nope
I hadn’t the slightest idea he was involved in something with Matt.
The "Bill Simmons" of ATQ
You're getting lazy.
"It's not about style. It's about winning the game. That's it." - Chip Kelly
by Duckfanatic10 on Jun 9, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
This was a legitimate and educational discussion.
This was one of the better discussions so far. It was surprisingly insightful regarding the relationship between readers and media with each side of the discussion being represented respectively. Thanks to Moseley for taking his time to do this.
Regarding some of the topics though:
I do disagree a little with Moseley regarding his statement regarding some columnists, like Canzano. While it will be difficult for me to make an unbiased argument as an Oregon fan, I can speak against their records. Canzano has made several references to anonymous sources within programs – which he either made up or foolishly trusted because they never accurately materialized (Masoli’s ‘09 injured for season), or that he had evidence to support his claim but for whatever reason he never produced or shared his evidence (Video of Blount hitting Belloti). It’s hard to see the motivation for those examples to be “thought provoking” for the reader. Then suddenly if you don’t agree with his stance, it’s because you, as his reader/listener, “don’t want to listen to ‘the truth’”
Granted, a lot of his more absurd claims are found on his radio talk show – and that very well could be yet another form of media that is outside of proper journalism. I don’t have as big of a problem with Canzano as many other people do – I’ve even defended him on this site; if that was under the pretense that he was saying that sort of thing to rile up his readers/listeners and drive ad revenue.and ratings, then I’m actually more disappointed in him. I sort of took comfort in that he was, from my perspective, often manufacturing evidence to support his claims.
It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-L-I-K-E-A-B-O-O-B-J-O-B"
by JShufelt on Jun 9, 2011 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, Rob!
First off, thanks to Rob for participating! Rob does an amazing job and if there’s anyone on here that isn’t reading his stuff you really should be. I especially appreciate the fact that Rob is disagree with Matt here, and I think the fact that Rob can disagree without us jumping up and down should be evidence enough that it’s not as much about us getting upset only when it shows Oregon in a negative light as it is us getting upset when people are just “stirring the pot”.
Good points, Shu. Canzano stands out in my mind as the person who best represents what Matt Daddy is talking about. He blurs the lines between his opinion and fact way too much in my opinion, and you give perfect examples of that. He reports things as if he’s reporting “straight news”, as Rob calls it, when it’s not actually news or fact at all. This is especially evident on his radio show, but it comes across in his articles too in my opinion. He forced his opinion so hard and says it in such a way that many readers take his opinion as fact. I know because I have personally had to correct a lot of my friends who are Duck fans who don’t follow things as closely as I do who have, on too many occasions, said something like, “no man, Masoli is done for the season. Canzano said. He has sources and everything.” And then when it ends up being untrue, there’s no accountability for that because he just says “hey I’m just putting my opinion out there”.
I think the most interesting thing in this “debate” is Rob’s multiple comments about expecting the readers to be able to differentiate on their own whether they are reading an opinion piece or “straight news”. Even when the line isn’t blurred as I mention above, for the most part I think this is an incorrect assumption to make. In my example above where I have had to correct my friends, I did, in fact, speak with them about the fact that Canzano is mostly an opinion piece guy. I honestly spoke with these people about the difference between someone reporting news and providing their opinion. Sure, many people out there do know the difference, but I can tell you without a doubt that a huge portion of readers/listeners/viewers don’t…sports fans especially.
When you take the fact that this huge portion of the readers/listeners/viewers doesn’t distinguish between “straight news” and opinion reporting, and add to it the fact that a lot of these writers/talk show hosts/commentators state their opinion as if it were fact, you end up with a lot of misinformed people. And then the informed people end up having to hear over and over and over again how Oregon is about to get hammered with sanctions, when there’s very little in the way of “straight news” to back up that assertion…just a whole lot of opinion coming from the pot-stirrers.
That doesn’t only bother me/us when it puts Oregon in a negative light. But when it does happen and put Oregon in a negative light, it indeed gives me/us the motivation to speak up about it.
2009 & 2010 Oregon Ducks Football: Back-2-back outright Pac 10 Champions
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jun 9, 2011 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
The point is you shouldn't HAVE to differentiate between "fact" and "opinion."
Columnists wouldn’t try to bullshit you back in the day by weaving fact, innuendo, and fiction together with their opinion. They’d very clearly state their opinion and tell you why. Except, of course, gossip columnists. Which is exactly why I always refer to Baldy the Clown as a gossip columnist.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep, that’s exactly what I mean. It either needs to be stated, or the opinion/fact/innuendo/fiction shouldn’t be woven together.
2009 & 2010 Oregon Ducks Football: Back-2-back outright Pac 10 Champions
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jun 9, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think this vision of news is very realistic
First, you talked about Canzano and the line being blurred. But the instance you brought up was an example of Canzano doing straight news. He was reporting what his sources said. And he failed miserably. I don’t even think that he tried to hide behind anything once it turned out to be not true. He simply ignored his mistake and moved on. He didn’t seem to care that he was incorrect. The bottom line here is that Canzano (in my eyes) has absolutely no reporting credibility. He has never been right on these issues, and I won’t trust what he says. As a columnist and radio show host, he’s entitled to his opinion, and his forays into actual reporting have been minimal, and a failure.
So while it’s fun to complain about the line being blurred, I don’t think it has the impact you are claiming. But the bigger problem, is that this is the type of news and commentary we demand. Consumers expect to be informed, and as Rob pointed out, straight news won’t get that done for the most part. They want “informed speculation.”
This line will continue to be more and more blurred in old media sources, that are constrained by time, and do not have a market for straight news as it had been for decades. In this environment, each writer must earn the trust of their readers. No one starts with credibility. Unfortunately, many people give instant credibility to any source. Look at what happens with a rumor on twitter. People run wild with NOTHING.
I’d like to know what your solution would be for this supposed problem. I don’t think there is one. In today environment, where news and information is constant, everyone has a voice, and because of that, everyone needs to be a smart consumer. There are plenty of idiots spouting opinions or making shit up, but there are countless more idiots who consume that information, and act like it matters.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
Interesting.
I think what you get with the media these days, as they are more and more driven by revenue streams, is a change from an open feedback circuit to a closed loop. ESPN notices that their viewers like dunks (home runs, NASCAR crashes, touchdown celebrations, scandals involving athletes) and so they load up SportsCenter with those things, which drives better ratings, which drives more focus on those small parts of the larger picture, which etc etc. And one of the things that is a “driver” in this context is the “first” mentality when it comes to “scandals.” One of the reasons UO keeps bearing the brunt of these rumors this summer is that everyone, regardless of facts, wants to be able to say they were “first” to “break” the story. Drudge made his entire career off of essentially stealing other people’s homework and “breaking” much of the Lewinsky scandal without verification by simply “being there first” and letting the established media worry about confirmation.
Another problem is folks like Canzano. As a (gossip) columnist, he’s under no constraints regarding journalistic integrity as far as not being a part of a story or creating a story where one might not exist. Much of what writers of his ilk do is creating controversy out of thin air, then justifying it as “important to think about.” Not only that, they can and do ignore blatant hypocrisy in their work. The Ducks don’t show up against BYU and sleepwalk through the game? Well, it’s just a complete disgrace. The (“Lunchpail U, hardworking, insert-your-superlative here”) Bavers do the EXACT SAME THING in the EXACT SAME BOWL against the EXACT SAME TEAM a couple years later? We still to this day have not heard a PEEP on the subject. LMJ has issues, this kid from OSU who tried to manhandle his girlfriend into his car IN PUBLIC apparently really doesn’t, or something. That’s where I find fault with Rob’s closing comment. It doesn’t matter if is might “look bad” that Matt seems to be finding fault with comments that might be anti-UO if in fact there is an identifiable pattern of bias. It’s apparent that the local writers are still a bit touchy and gun-shy about the Alonso/Parker issue and well they should be.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 10:21 AM PDT reply actions
It doesn’t matter if is might "look bad" that Matt seems to be finding fault with comments that might be anti-UO if in fact there is an identifiable pattern of bias
There is an identifiable pattern of COVERAGE. All the instances you’ve described, are examples that no one gives a crap about OSU, but they care about Oregon. Ask any Beaver fan their opinion of UO coverage, and they’ll claim the same level of bias.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
I'm not disagreeing with you
I guess what I’ve come to realize through this is that we fans are really quick to jump to conclusions and make assumptions about certain media member’s biases, especially when it comes to our favorite team, yet we’re not as willing to look ourselves in the mirror when it comes to those same biases.
Just like it’s wrong for a writer to run and hide behind his “journalist” name badge, it’s also wrong for a fan to use “I’m just a fan” when making assumptions or jumping to conclusions about the intentions of media. That’s not to say those that have shown a propensity or pattern of behavior for stretching the truth in the media should be given a free pass, only that maybe it’s best to pause before we grab the torches and pitchforks and instead try and see what point is trying to be communicated. If it’s not one we agree with, then the worst thing you can do to them, is ignore them. It shows them that their idea is wrong.
"the putz from that UO blog, Matt Daddy" - Steve Tannen
The Daily Faberian
Again, the "clear pattern of bias" issue rears it's head here.
First, I have no problem whatsoever with the Ducks being called out WHEN JUSTIFIED, and I’m embarrassed when bad things to happen. But OTOH many of these same writers who frame it as FAN bias are simply deflecting the issue or hiding from it without acknowledging that they (or more specifically, their peers) have agendas or biases in their work. Kilo is obviously (though I don’t know him personally) a “bad guy” or a “thug” who needs to be thrown out with the trash while Parker is a “great guy” who “I’ve known for years” who “simply has a little problem.” No agenda there? Not a case in any way of “protecting your own?” The James kerfuffle with his ex stayed out in front of us for MONTHS, while this seemingly worse case with the OSU player has seemingly gone away completely. Not a PEEP. Mosely’s answer about it being more about fan bias ignores the question then turns it around on us.
I am reminded of the addage “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
As jtlight mentioned above
almost everything about UO is covered more than OSU. We can’t expect to be really popular, have huge media attention for all the victories, many more fans and casual followers than ‘little brother’ and then get upset when our missteps are covered more than other local teams. OSU gets more attention than PSU, and we get more than OSU. USC gets more than all of us combined.
I don’t see it as bias, as previously said, no one in even in Oregon other than die hard fans gives a crap about the bavers. This applies for ESPN too, a felon beaver is a much smaller story than a felon Duck to a national audience.
Locally?
I’m not sure I agree. The Oregonian DOES make an effort to cover the Bavers pretty thoroughly, for instance. The Salem S-J does as well. Of course the R-G has a heavy Duck-leaning tilt, but that’s to be expected I suppose, being that the Ducks are actually the local team. And I don’t thing you have to be a “die-hard fan” to “give a crap about” OS. A casual fan by definition “gives a crap” about them.
And this line of thinking opens up a whole different line of questioning. If in fact the Oregonian covers UO more than it does OS, why? Pandering to subscribers? Another case of chasing the $$$ on the part of a news organization?
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
If they cover Oregon more, I think it’s simply because Oregon is a bigger news story right now. I thought the O’s reporting was quite balanced in the run up to the 2009 Civil War, and it was because both teams had an equal amount at stake in that game. If Oregon drops off and the Beavs challenge for a Nat’l Championship in football (I know, bite my tongue), they will drop Oregon like a hot potato.
Absurdity is my favorite.
You mean we have access to torches and pitchforks @ATQ?
Why the hell was I not informed before now? We could have taken care of axemen23 years ago!
THAT'S RIGHT, Kenny Wheaton you did. You cut back into GREATNESS.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jun 9, 2011 1:48 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You mention Davie, whom I agree is one of the worst.
The real issue is that virtually all television commentators feel the need to fill aboslutely, positively, every single second with some sort of inane blather. Even play-by- play guys have gotten into the act. I’d rather hear the QB call out his cadence than hear Mussberger telling me that he’s calling out his cadence. I can see he’s surveying the defense, because I’m watching the game on TV, not listening to it on the radio. There’s nothing wrong with a little silence.
Analysis after a play is fine, especially if there’s actually something worth analyzing (which doesn’t necessarily happen every play). But the editorializing isn’t necessary.
This is why I'm not as high on Gus Johnston as so many other sports fans.
I don’t need the Gus-gasam to let me know that something fun and exciting is happening, I’m watching it go down. The guy’s having fun and I respect that, but why are you taking over my broadcast?
Joe Buck and Troy Aikeman have responded to this in the past couple years. Joe comes from a baseball background where there’s more space to fill on a TV broadcast. He’s openly admitted (in a 2009 preseason game I was watching, at least) to trying to reduce the amount of time he’s talking.
Who needs normal sleep patterns?
by AcadianTraverse on Jun 9, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
GREAT post
Thanks Matt Daddy, and thanks to Rob Moseley for participating.
I think I might be in the minority here. I love to read opinion. As a matter of fact, I would love nothing more than to hear personal opinions from Rob, Ted Miller and Ken Goe on multiple topics about the Ducks. It drives me crazy that they are in the ‘news’ camp and hold their opinions so very close to their vests. I want to brow beat them into giving me an opinion on everything – Is Darron Thomas a really good team leader? How does he stack up against other recent QBs in that area? Do you think CK is an asshole, a good guy or just an acquired taste?? I tend to read their blog posts very closely because it is the one place they are willing to venture into ‘educated commentary’ and I really enjoy hearing what they have to say. I love Ted Miller’s chats and mailbags because I get to hear his opinion on multiple topics. I want more more more of this kind of thing, but I’m not likely to get it as this is not their role within the media.
I also like to read the works of columnists, espcially Shroeder, Steward Mandel and Ivan Maisel. I don’t enjoy Canzano but it is not because I perceive him to be biased, but that I find him extremely sanctimonious, no matter the subject of his columns. I don’t like the histrionic tone he so often sets – I feel like he’s the sports version of Maury Povich. Since I don’t care for his style, I hardly ever read him. Funny though, I tend to like him better over the radio. He’s way less pompous in that medium than he is in print.
Absurdity is my favorite.
I refuse to be the first to say it.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I refuse.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Canzano being Sanctimonious
Totally agree with that and it’s the #1 thing that drives me away from his column and made me switch to 1080thefan even before 95.5 went to 750am. When I hear him speaking in a condescending tone to someone like Larry Miller it just makes me laugh. I always find myself wondering if the person on the other end of the line is rolling his eyes or what.
But the main reason I responded to your comment is that you made me think about what I prefer. And, to be honest, I think I agree with you, with one caveat. I enjoy opinion stuff as long as the writer/host is clear that is what I’m getting. On radio/TV it’s often as simple as someone saying “I think XYZ” or “If I was him, I’d be thinking ABC”.
And I can give you an example that proves that I think that way when it involved neither Canzano nor the Ducks. After game 2 of the NBA Finals, I was listening to 1080thefan on my drive home. Big Suke was going on and on about how, even though Dallas had just won game 2 in Miami, they didn’t stand a chance because Miami is the more talented team. He said things like, “Miami can look at the things they did wrong and correct them, but Dallas can’t” and “Miami is CLEEEARLY the better team” and “I want Dallas to win, but it’s just not going to happen”.
I’m listening to this and having to remind myself that this is just this guy’s opinion. But I have to remind myself of it because he’s stating it in a way that makes the listener think we’re missing some golden piece of information. I mean, he’s so positive and he covers sports for a living, so I guess if I thought Dallas had a chance I must be wrong. All of this despite the fact that this is a guy who got his job because he was an offensive lineman for BYU and played in the NFL for a couple of years. I like Big Suke, I think he does a good job overall, and I value his football opinions (which are frequently anti-Ducks). However, I know more about basketball than he does for sure. But a less-informed basketball fan would for sure think that Miami was going to steamroll the Mavs in the next 3 games.
They started to get a lot of texts and calls from some pretty heated/passionate people arguing with him. He couldn’t figure out why people were getting so emotional about it, when I think it may have dawned on him that he never stopped and said “but I could be wrong” or “that’s just my opinion, and I’m a football guy so take it for what it’s worth.” After some calls/texts/emails he ended up saying something like “this is just my opinion”, and things died down.
The point is, I do like opinion stuff. And I like it even if it goes against my beloved Ducks. But when I read/watch/listen to something that is supposed to be opinion, and it’s presented in a way that makes it seem like it’s fact, I’m going to be speaking up if I disagree. It goes back to what Rob states in the post, and what I commented on above: I believe that the presenter of the information should not assume the the consumer of the information knows that the information is an opinion. When reading the O, a vast majority of people are going to go into things assuming they are reading proven facts unless otherwise stated, or the information is presented in a way that makes it clear.
Let’s say Rob learns that DT is having some problems in class, but that he’s still passing his classes as of now. He speaks with some teammates and other sources off the record. It comes out through other media that he’s having problems. Rob goes and writes a blog post that says: “Darron Thomas will not be the starting QB for the Ducks next year. I found through anonymous sources close to the team today that DT has been having some serious academic problems that are going to keep him out of the first half of the season. I hope your ready, Brian Bennett .”
Just because this was a blog post, and people should realize that a blog post means it’s your opinion and is less strict in terms of requirements, doesn’t mean that most people are going to read that and think that Rob is just speculating. If, instead, he said, “from what academic problems I heard he had, my experience leads me to believe that Thomas could miss some playing time next season.” But a lot of these guys refuse to do that, and I can’t understand why unless it is to make people believe that their word is the truth. This is almost exactly what happened in the Masoli situation prior to the UCLA game in 2009.
2009 & 2010 Oregon Ducks Football: Back-2-back outright Pac 10 Champions
by MarineCorpsDuck on Jun 9, 2011 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
You made me just think about something that I should have brought up with Rob...
After some calls/texts/emails he ended up saying something like "this is just my opinion", and things died down.
In most walks of life if your opinion or statement creates a situation where everyone around you goes, “WHOOOOOAAAA wait a minute, what the hell are you saying!!!” then you’ll quickly rethink what you just said, clarify and make sure that people know this is just your opinion if that is the case. If I met with a client and walked into the meeting and said, “XYZ company is going to go bankrupt and nobody is going to buy their products” for the company my client works for, if my client disagrees they are going to force me to prove what I am saying beyond a shadow of a doubt and if I’m wrong, I probably don’t have a client any more and most likely not a job either.
In the media business it’s different:
And I don’t think any of them mind being “called out” or questioned about their work; that would simply be evidence that they are indeed influencing the market for ideas on any given subject.
Rob states it right there. They don’t mind it because it reinforces that they are actually influencing the market for ideas. It flies in the face of what he later writes when he says:
How come nobody jumped all over my rear end for offering opinions in that case? Those weren’t facts. Those were just my (informed) opinions.
It’s not opinions that are the issue. It’s flamboyant “trying to influence the market” opinions that are the issue. Nobody jumped all over your butt Rob, because you were right. Because you reinforced what people were thinking or added to what they weren’t.
Very few professions are you allowed to be wrong so many times with your “opinions” and still be employed. What’s even worse are the people that are rewarded, not for being right (like Drudge who was just lucky) but for being first or creating the most commotion.
"the putz from that UO blog, Matt Daddy" - Steve Tannen
The Daily Faberian
I believe that the presenter of the information should not assume the the consumer of the information knows that the information is an opinion.
I disagreed above as well, but I think this is a pretty ridiculous idea. When someone is predicting future events (like your Big Suke example), then they shouldn’t have to say that his opinions are, in fact, opinions.
The line between fact and opinion has been blurred, but it’s really not hard to tell the difference.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
im not so easily pushed over.....
sonds like moseley would would gladly beat write for hitler because “that’s the time their in” or “that’s what the population expects” or because “that’s what the money coming in will allow”…
what does the population wants to pay for? it’s hard to say what the population really wants to pay for based on a journalistic culture of monotone philosophy and coverage that barely offers anything other than one standard storyline or ideology. But then again, that’s why he still has a job in journalism; hitler wouldn’t keep journalists who rock the boat and neither would todays corporate media outlets, of which moseley is an empoyee. excuses, excuses, excuses mr. moseley. are you a journalist or a puppet?
of all the things moseley says a “journalist” wants, not one of them was accuracy, ethically sound business practices or a clear conscience. hmmm.
“Davie, Griese, whoever. the point is…” YOU JUST MADE THE POINT. the point is that specifics, and in this case the reality of what Matt Daddy litterlly wrote, is barely important, if that, without a sensationalist punch.
Mr. Moseley also demonstrates a near total lack of most things Logic except for fallacies, which he demonstrates often, including in his response to Matt Daddy here.
I understand that this is all about sports, but sports is a part (a big one for some of us) of a much larger culture. And enlightened thought has to start somewhere.
Nice job Matt Daddy, your questions and concerns are justified and refreshing. Mr. Moseley? Shame on you!
Godwin’s Law; Try again.
It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-L-I-K-E-A-B-O-O-B-J-O-B"
by JShufelt on Jun 9, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
think again...
it’s not a comparison of anything to the Nazi’s, it’s a comparison of psychological self justifications of journalist that just so happens to use a very powerful historical perspective to illustrate the point. you know, ‘keys of the past, unlocking the door to the future’
And what kind of an idiot discredits an argument because it uses a real event to support it? It’s only obvious that events that leave the greatest impact on a culture, or race, or humanity will be referred to at a high rate. And they should be. you know, “doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past”
Godwin’s Law is for boobs, as in s-h-u-f-e-l-t-l-i-k-a-B-O-O-B-j-o-b. Try again.
by Quacker Backer on Jun 9, 2011 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I LAHV BOOBS!

Loose bills sink quills.
by DuckUntilDeath on Jun 9, 2011 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I stopped reading when you put forth a hyperbolic example of Moseley being Hitler’s beat writer for Hitler. There was no more need for me to continue reading. Go ahead and call me an idiot, I don’t care and you’re probably right. But when absolute rubbish is presented to me, I choose not to read it. When a grammatical monstrosity that references Hitler (A part of Godwin’s Law) is presented to me, I fell like it is my civic duty to call it out.
Rob being Hitler’s beat writer has nothing to do with the discussion above. I haven’t read what you first wrote, and I don’t intend to. You took a real event to support a ridiculous claim, and instead of using that real event to illustrate your point, you completely diminish the impact of that real event.
It's spelled "S-H-U-F-E-L-T-L-I-K-E-A-B-O-O-B-J-O-B"
you kinda have to read something before you come to a conclusion about it don’t you? again, it’s not hyperbole, it’s a literally statement. moseley’s priorities in terms of what he as a journalist wants fit nicely into any court records from the nazi trials. in fact, you could probably find the exact sentence (only in german) in those transcript. this is VERY LITERAL. and appropriate to bring up when discussing a journalist integrity.
those are cute birds!
by Quacker Backer on Jun 10, 2011 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Your statements are pathetic and ridiculous. If you continue to troll like this, you’ll no longer be welcome at ATQ.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
You’re really going to try and defend likening the systematic genocide of millions and millions of people with…college football beat journalism?
Really? Like really really?

THAT'S RIGHT, Kenny Wheaton you did. You cut back into GREATNESS.
by HoodRiverDuck on Jun 10, 2011 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you should take it easy on the Nazi/Hilter references before you get a full blown case of Nazi tourrettes
As Oregon is now joining the elite football programs we need to be a bit cautious of our outrage toward other elite programs that do some cheating. All big time, big money programs do some cheating at some level. This level of cheating fluctuates over the years and will usually culminate in an event like this, or at USC recently. I know we like to think that Oregon will be immune, but all big time programs get nailed for something eventually. It wasn’t long ago that LaMike’s ride was being looked at.
by OregonNYC on May 31, 2011 11:23 AM PDT
Your reply
You and your friends here would make great Nazi’s ……
by Quacker Backer on May 31, 2011 1:46 PM PDT
I see you trollin'...
Welcome to the working week. I know it don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you.
by qrsouther on Jun 9, 2011 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, it was 5:00 somewhere.
Loose bills sink quills.
by DuckUntilDeath on Jun 9, 2011 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
For me personally
It’s a couple things:
As are “opinion” pieces by guys like Canzano and Schroeder when they write positively about the Ducks’ prognosis, which does happen, even if those don’t draw as much attention as the others.
It’s rare, IMHO, that either of these guys write something positive about the Ducks. I do not respect nor enjoy speculation on the part of any writer (good news or bad news) when it pertains to the team I follow. I really want facts with a modicum of intellectual insight. I respect Moseley and Jude as two writers for the RG that I will always read. Schroeder I can’t stomach even when he is giving one of his rare positive columns, because there is always a back stab in the end.
Color commentary during live sporting events can be okay depending upon who they are. For example in tennis I simply cannot stand John McEnroe. He is one of those announcers, like someone mentioned above, that feels he needs to fill absolutely every single second of air space with his opinions. His brother Patrick on the other hand is a perfect example of just enough commentary to interest you without over commentating.
In football there are so many I don’t enjoy that it’s hard to pick just one. A lot of the time I have my volume down almost as far as it will go so I can make my own assessments of games that I watch. Though there are some I’ll listen to because they don’t feel the need to fill the empty air.
I thank Matt and Rob for doing this piece. It was a very good read to get both of their perspectives on this issue.
""Not everybody is a perfect person in this world. I mean, everyone does ... kills people..." -Terrelle Pryor - tOSU ex-QB
OTOH, if anyone remembers when Steve Duin was on the sports desk,
they remember a guy who truly had an agenda, against sports in general, and didn’t even try to hide it. I don’t think I ever read anything positive in any way that he wrote about sports. Not a single thing. And he is, if anything, even more so as a news columnist, literally about everything. He must be a truly miserable person to deal with.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 9, 2011 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I remember.
""Not everybody is a perfect person in this world. I mean, everyone does ... kills people..." -Terrelle Pryor - tOSU ex-QB
It’s rare, IMHO, that either of these guys write something positive about the Ducks.
Then you aren’t paying attention. Canzano has had plenty of articles that put Chip Kelly in a positive light, even if he still has to pull a Canzano and leave little caveats here and there. And Schroeder is constantly writing positive articles about Oregon.
Rob is 100% right, and your comment confirms his suspicions.
--AddictedToQuack, SBNation's Oregon Ducks blog
I AM paying attention
You are wrong. Almost every article either one writes there is a barb in it somewhere. That’s negative. It may begin positive, but somewhere either Canzano or Schroeder get in a negative barb.
""Not everybody is a perfect person in this world. I mean, everyone does ... kills people..." -Terrelle Pryor - tOSU ex-QB
I found it interesting that Rob seemed to believe that one media guy is just the same as any other media guy.
His opinion seemed to imply ‘media guys should be treated with respect and so should what they say and have said.’ But that’s just MY opinion.
I believe that media guys have shown me various levels of credibility.
I take what each has shown me with similar believability.
I like John Canzano’s interviews with Chip Kelly. He doesn’t try to bullshit Chip any more and they have an informative dialogue which is enjoyable, IMO. John’s writing however doesn’t have the same kind of restraint and he goes off with seemingly little concern for facts and I think that he hurts himself and sometimes others and I do not respect his written efforts.
"What you are entrusted to do as a coach is to create an environment where your players have a chance to be successful." CHIP KELLY
"Hey, I'm heading off to fraternize with the team"
is not something I was ever going to say to my parents. Football players are part of a demographic that will push boundaries and break rules (like, oh all the other demographics….18-20 yr-olds’ mishaps are more predictable, thus, easier to catch) so if there were suddenly a paltry amount reports on misbehaving athletes, then I’d get suspicious of our reporters’ capacity for objectivity. Also, with sports being the huge industry it is, consumers are inevitably going to form opinions, so it never crossed my mind to that a reporter or columnist would be crossing the line by proffering up their own opinions. No one’s forcing you to agree with them and most of them invite feedback. The main caveat, one that I alluded to on Shroeder’s blog regarding Alonzo, was that we (the fanbase) need to remember that although we’re exposed to our athletic heroes as much as or more than our favorite celebrities, the athlete’s impetus for being successful is arguably different than the celebrity’s. Just to play the devil’s advocate, I’m sure you could find a lot of overlap between what drives athletes and what drives celebrities to be successful, but even in those cases, athletes (especially college athletes) seem to be held to higher personal standards, undergo more ego/reality checks, are consistently mentored by coaches/teachers, come from a variety of backgrounds, and have more diverse futures than the average celebrity (especially contemporary celebrities where they’re all paper doll cut-outs of each other). That’s why I get nervous on their behalf sometimes when I see all the media coverage but I have to admit, the Eugene reporters haven’t written anything that I’d be uncomfortable with if I were the athlete in the spotlight. Also, naysayers and skeptics shouldn’t be discouraged- If they’re right, we should thank them for stepping up and if they’re wrong, their effect would be to strengthen the validity of those they disagreed with. If our sensitivity continues, perhaps we should get philisophical about why people have a drive to be in the limelight to begin with?
I’m likely to go off on tangents if I continue so I will just end by saying I appreciated the blog that you guys put up a while back regarding proper fan behavior AAAAND I must say, the couple of times I’ve seen some of our football players up close, they did seem like guys you could “fraternize” with (to the average extent in the right atmosphere). Seriously, the impression I got was that they were happy, unassuming, receptive guys with no agendas nor mood disorders. Also, they seemed to genuinely enjoy the atmosphere where they raised $ for the Kilcullens. That’s proof that they’re dynamic.
& for the record, reporters/columnists will don’t incense me as much as the hasty, self-rightious fan who makes blanket derogatory remarks regarding an athlete’s actions. Athletes are young and impressionable and it’s true that they’re environment will affect them. When I throw my computer out a window, it’ll be because of something tasteless I read on facebook or on a blog regarding the “scandalous” behavior of an 18 yr-old who likely never gets a moment to himself. Carry on…..
So I read your whole post.
It is massive, so I’ll try to sum it up to see if I got it all.
1. Good News is rarely News, i.e. the sharks come out when you’re bleeding. Getting rescused by the Coast Guard kicks ass but dosent make Shark Week.
2. Young people do stupid shit (Lord knows I did). As an athlete the higher level of scrutiny makes it more likely they will get caught.
Is that about it?
by Quack Patty on Jun 10, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
you missed one
3. Nazi references are NOT welcome on ATQ. KGBs will be permitted on a case by case basis.
The "Bill Simmons" of ATQ
Interesting.
The Soviets murdered far more people than the Nazis did. Why give them a pass? I mean, we’re talking conservative estimates of 40 million, with Stalin alone responsible for over 20 million. And this doesn’t include enemy soldiers, we’re talking their own people along with Poles (at least 10,000 at Katyn alone), Estonians, Latvians, etc.
Fuck you, Juju. We'll do it ourselves.
by BigGreenWreckingMachine on Jun 10, 2011 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Are we really going to get into the age old Stalin versus Hitler thing on here?
Welcome to the working week. I know it don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you.
Quinn has fond memories of the philosophical discussions of his youth.
Everybody was kung foo fighting, now it's all ho hum.
by Bill Musgrave on Jun 11, 2011 4:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Lots of illuminating wrangle about the real practical uses of the white crayon and how many jelly beans were in the jar.
Welcome to the working week. I know it don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you.
I have to say
Great first comment, and welcome. I totally agree that we hold these kids at a standard that is higher than their peers. I think it is good to remember that we are talking about 18-23 year olds. I don’t have any statistics, but I would be willing to guess that if you compare a random set of people their age to the football players as a whole they would look pretty good. Wasn’t there an article last year about this subject?
"What the hell was that?"
"Spaceball One, they've gone to plaid!"
maybe my friends tell me I think too much, IDK
I suppose I could plan a Don Johnson-inspired foray into football-land with the intent of gathering information that would make my optimistic claims more valid but experience tells me that all my machinations can only ever result in Peter Sellers-worthy scenarios. Another reason I’ll gladly accept reporters’ accounts of all facets of athletic teams rather than try to figure everything out on my own.
It is a good idea to minimize verbage. I’m jealous of Quackpatty with his 2-sentence summation.
& I should have spelled Schroeder correctly- oops.

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